Saturday 10 March 2018

If we investigate the ego closely enough we will see that it is only brahman, but however closely we investigate the world we can never thereby see that it is brahman

After telling me that he is now reading Ramana Maharshi: The Crown Jewel of Advaita by John Grimes, a friend sent me two WhatsApp messages saying:
I am ‘excited’. For the first time I read about or understood the distinction between the illusory nature of the world and that of the individual — John Grimes’ book p. 147 and 148. Seeing the rope as snake and seeing the white conch shell as yellow conch shell due to the unseen or unrecognized yellow glass. Wonderful explanation that struck me.

Brahman manifesting as world, but seeing only the world as real is illusion like seeing the rope as snake. The individual though only brahman, and also felt as I, but due to ego (yellow glass), mistaking I as me or mine.

Thus while both are illusions, the second one is that in aspect or nature of ‘I’, although I is seen or experienced. When the ignorance is removed, it will be known that it is brahman that was being all the while experienced hitherto also as ‘I’ — that is there are not two ‘I’s.
The following is adapted from the reply I wrote to him:

I assume that John Grimes had good reasons for using these two analogies as he did, but from what you have written his reasons are not clear, so I am not able to understand exactly what distinction he is making by means of these analogies. If anything I would think they should be used the other way round.

That is, however closely we investigate the world, we can never thereby see that it is brahman, just as however closely we look at a white conch through a yellow glass it will continue to seem as if it were yellow. Our ego is like the yellow glass, because so long as we see through the ego we will see only nāma-rūpa (names and forms: the phenomena that constitute the world) and not brahman as it is, which is just pure sat-cit-ānanda (existence-awareness-bliss) uncontaminated by nāma-rūpa. However, if we investigate the ego closely enough we will see that it is not the ego that it seemed to be but only brahman, just as if we look at an illusory snake closely enough we will see that it is not the snake that it seemed to be but only a rope.

The world (that is, the totality of all phenomena, whether in our present state or in any similar state, all of which are just dreams) is a secondary illusion, whereas the ego is the primary illusion that gives rise to this secondary illusion, because the ego alone is what perceives both of these illusions. Without the ego, no world would seem to exist, and so long as the ego seems to exist, some world or other will also seem to exist, because the ego seems to exist only when it grasps a body as ‘I’, and whatever body it grasps as ‘I’ appears along with whichever world it is a part of. The ego is therefore the root of all illusion.

The ego is an illusion that arises without any intervening media, whereas any other illusion such as a world appears and is perceived only through the intervening medium of ego. Therefore seeing a white conch as yellow when it is seen through the intervening medium of a yellow glass is an apt analogy for seeing brahman as all the phenomena that constitute this or any other world when it (brahman) is seen through the intervening medium of ego, whereas seeing a rope as a snake is in many respects an apt analogy for seeing brahman as the perceiving ego, because just as the snake is a direct (unmediated) misperception of the rope, the ego is a direct (unmediated) misperception of brahman, our real nature. However, whereas the snake is perceived by (and therefore seems to exist only in the view of) a separate observer, the ego is perceived by (and therefore seems to exist only in the view of) itself.

I think perhaps the reason why John Grimes used these analogies as he did is that he is viewing illusion from the perspective of the old advaita analysis, according to which the root problem is ignorance (avidyā) because it is what obscures our awareness of brahman, whereas according to Bhagavan’s deeper analysis what is ignorant is only the ego, so without the ego there is no ignorance, and hence the root problem is only the ego. The old advaita analysis is correct insofar as self-ignorance is the very nature of the ego, but it is misunderstood by many people to mean that ignorance is what gives rise to the ego rather than being nothing other than the ego itself. Therefore, since ignorance is not other than the ego, we cannot remove it without removing the ego, and since the ego is an incorrect awareness of ourself it can only be removed by awareness of ourself as we actually are.

Therefore as Bhagavan taught us, all we need do to remove the ego (along with its ignorance) is to look at it very carefully and thereby see that it is only brahman. This is best illustrated by the analogy of the rope that seems to be a snake, because all we need do to remove the illusion that it is a snake is to look at it very carefully and thereby see that it is only a rope. Therefore in the case of the ego this analogy illustrates three points: firstly, that what seems to be the ego is in fact only brahman; secondly, that we therefore cannot see brahman as it is so long as we see it as the ego; and thirdly and most importantly, that we can see brahman as it is (that is, as the pure and infinite self-awareness that we actually are) only by investigating the ego.

Though this analogy of the rope that seems to be a snake is often used to illustrate the point that what seems to be the world is in fact only brahman, and also the consequent point that we cannot see brahman as it is so long as we see it as the world (as Bhagavan explains in the third paragraph of Nāṉ Yār?), it is applicable to the world only to this extent, because if we try to extend it further it would seem to suggest that we can become aware of brahman as it is by investigating the world, which is clearly not the case. In this respect the traditional analogy of seeing a white conch shell as a yellow one because we are jaundiced (or because we are looking at it through a yellow glass, as per the variant of it used by John Grimes) is more appropriate, because our lack of clear vision due to our rising as the ego is what causes us to see brahman as the world, just as a lack of clear vision due to jaundice (or an intervening yellow glass) is what causes us to see a white conch as a yellow one, so to see brahman as it is we need to remove the ego, just as to see white conch as it is we need to remove our jaundice (or the intervening yellow glass).

However from what you write John Grimes does seem to point out one of the most important distinctions between the ego and the world, namely that the ego is aware of itself as ‘l’ (in other words, it is self-aware), which is the nature of brahman, whereas the world is jaḍa, so it is not aware of anything, either itself or anything else. The ego is self-aware because it is a confused mixture of pure awareness (cit), which is brahman, and adjuncts (upādhis) beginning with a body, which are all non-aware (jaḍa), and hence it is called cit-jaḍa-granthi, the knot (granthi) formed by the entanglement of cit with jaḍa, making them appear as if they were one.

Of these two elements that comprise the ego, cit and jaḍa, only awareness (cit) is real, because it is permanent and unchanging, whereas its jaḍa element consists only of adjuncts, which are transient and subject to change. Therefore the essence and reality of the ego is not any of its transient adjuncts but only its permanent self-awareness, so if it investigates itself keenly enough it will see that it is just pure and infinite self-awareness, and hence it will no longer seem to be the adjunct-bound and hence finite self-awareness called ‘ego’.

Since pure self-awareness (prajñānam) is brahman, as declared in the mahāvākyaprajñānaṁ brahma’ (Aitarēya Upaniṣad 3.3), the real nature of brahman will be revealed only when the ego investigates itself (its own self-awareness) and thereby dissolves back into its original state as pure self-awareness.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

After I had written this reply to my friend, he sent me photos of the portions of the three pages of the book that he had referred to (namely half of page 147, all of page 148 and half of page 149 of Ramana Maharshi: The Crown Jewel of Advaita), and by reading this extract I was able to understand what John Grimes intended to illustrate by using these two analogies in the way he did. That is, in the case of the rope-snake analogy, the identity of the rope is concealed entirely when it seems to be a snake, just as the nature of brahman is concealed entirely when it seems to be the world, whereas in the case of the white conch seen through a yellow glass, what is concealed by the intervening yellow glass is not the identity of the conch as such but only one of its features, namely its whiteness, just as what is concealed by the appearance of the ego is not the entire nature of Brahman but only certain aspects of its nature, because the ego is aware of itself as ‘I’, which is the nature of brahman, but is also aware of itself as a finite form, namely a body, which is contrary to the nature of brahman, since brahman is formless and hence infinite.

Self-awareness is the very nature of brahman, and the same self-awareness shines even in the ego, but not in the world. The only sense in which self-awareness shines in the world is that in the view of the ego, which is aware of itself as a person, all the other people and sentient beings in the world seem to be self-aware like itself, but the supposed self-awareness of other people is not experienced by the ego directly but is just inferred by it from their behaviour, so for our present purposes we can discount it. Moreover even in a dream all the other people and sentient beings seen by the dreaming ego seem to be self-aware, but when the ego wakes up from that dream it recognises that all those other people and their self-awareness were just its own mental projection, so if our present state is just a dream, as Bhagavan says it is, all the other people we see in this world and their seeming self-awareness are just our own mental projection.

Therefore for our present purposes we can say that the world as such is not aware of anything, neither of itself nor of anything else, whereas the ego is aware both of itself and of other things. Awareness of other things is not the nature of brahman, because in the clear view of brahman it alone exists, so there is no other thing for it to be aware of. Therefore brahman is aware of itself only as ‘I’, which is why Bhagavan often said that it shines as just ‘I am I’, whereas the ego is aware of itself as ‘I am this body’.

Therefore the self-awareness of brahman is concealed in the world, whereas in the ego it is not concealed but is nevertheless obscured, because instead shining as pure self-awareness (awareness of nothing other than itself) it shines as the adjunct-mixed self-awareness ‘I am this’, which entails being aware of things other than itself alone. In other words, the ego is self-awareness contaminated with awareness of other things (all of which seem to exist only in its view, just as everything perceived in a dream seems to exist only in the view of the dreamer), whereas brahman is self-awareness uncontaminated by even the slightest awareness of anything else whatsoever.

Therefore in order to be aware of itself as brahman, which is what it always actually is, all that the ego need do is to withdraw its attention from everything else by focusing it keenly on itself alone. In other words, we seem to be this ego only so long as we are aware of anything other than ourself (anything other than pure self-awareness, which is what we actually are), so when we are so keenly self-attentive that we are aware of nothing else whatsoever, we will see that we are just pure self-awareness, and hence the ego that we seemed to be will be dissolved forever in the infinite light of pure self-awareness, which is what is called brahman.

When we look outwards to see anything other than ourself, we seem to be this ego, but when we turn back within to see ourself alone, we will see that we are nothing other than pure and infinite self-awareness. This is why Bhagavan often used to say that the attention turned outwards is ego or mind, and that when the ego or mind is turned inwards it remains as ātma-svarūpa, the real nature of oneself.

In the words that Devaraja Mudaliar recorded in English, though Bhagavan would actually have spoken only in Tamil (and hence what Mudaliar refers to as ‘the Self’ is what Bhagavan would probably have referred to as ātma-svarūpa or perhaps just svarūpa, which means our real nature): ‘The mind, turned outwards, results in thoughts and objects. Turned inwards, it becomes itself the Self’ (Day by Day with Bhagavan 8-11-45: 2002 edition, page 37), and ‘The mind turned inwards is the Self; turned outwards, it becomes the ego and all the world’ (ibid. 11-1-46: page 106).

567 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   401 – 567 of 567
Sanjay Lohia said...

Salazar, thanks for letting us know about your views on The New Testament. I didn't know that it was written 300 years after Jesus' passing.

. . said...

Actually most of it is facts and not my "view" :-)

padam said...

Sanjay Lohia,
in your comment nr.400 you say "...even a new-born infant may have an ego, although it is extremely weak, but the jnani has absolutely no ego."
Without an ego the "new-born infant" could not be born in a "new body" again.
One may presume that birth can and must occur only to an intact ego.
Though it is said that (the unborn) atma-svarupa as such is never in need of birth (in a gross body), even Jesus and Bhagavan for instance seem to have come at first as ego into this world.

aikya said...

Although we do not have much reliable evidence about the history of the origin of the Bible we should not overlook that Bhagavan Ramana honoured fundamental statements of the Bible and has spoken about them with great respect.

. . said...

I am sure that Bhagavan intuitively knew what part of the New Testament was true and therefore quoted it.
Is that also true for anybody else? Do the "students" of the New Testament know if it is really the truth by Jesus or if it is just some distorted interpretation of the many people who transmitted that "teaching" orally for many generations before it was written down? No of course not, we lack that capability and as such the authenticity of the NT is highly questionable.

If you have any actual facts to refute the many facts I stated about the questionable source of the NT I am all ears.

Even though Bhagavan quoted a tiny part of the NT, does that make it an impeccable source in its entirety? Of course not! Then why making this comment?

Mouna said...

Salazar,

FYI, the first gospels to appear were within the first century after the passing of Jesus.
Paul’s letters are supposed to be written around 50-60 after Jesus dies.
The 300 year mark you mention, as I recall, was when Christianity became kind of legalized as a religion of the Roman Empire by Constantine. Please check on that.

. . said...

Mouna, there is a huge range in the time frame when was what written of the NT. There is no actual evidence which pinpoints to the actual time. Depends who you read and what source you take as correct.

It doesn't really matter, 100 years, 300 years, fact is it was written a long time after the death of Jesus and we know how quickly things get distorted when a teaching is transmitted orally.

I invite for everybody to make an experiment: Invite 10-15 of your friends and sit them down in a circle. Then you whisper a sentence into the ear of the friend at your right and he then whispers that sentence to his person at his right and so on until, after 15 people, the person to your left whispers you that sentence into your ear.

That sentence will be unrecognizable compared to the original sentence. Try it out!

As always, if people insist, for whatever irrational reason, to take quotes from the NT for relevant, they are welcome to do so.

. . said...

Especially when you compare (the timing aspect) the NT with i.e. The Talks which were written when Bhagavan was alive. However, as I understand it, no records were allowed at the time of the satsang therefore the author/translator of the Talks wrote them down in the evening when he was in his room. And that already created distortions, based on how good his memory was and then how he interpreted what he's heard.

That was at the same day!

Now look at 50 to 100 years of oral transmissions by different people with different understandings etc.

Heck, take the people on this blog and we sit down in a circle and then we whisper a longer quote of the GVK, let's see how it arrives at the end ....

It will be an entire new teaching :-)

* said...

This 1972 talk by Herb Fitch, is the first in a series about the book, Realization of Oneness, by Joel Goldsmith (1892-1964), a so-called Christian Mystic. It's a taste of what the Bible is really all about, which I think some of you will find interesting. And an interesting side note: Joel Goldsmith was who Robert Adams first went to see about what he was experiencing. Joel sent him to Yogananda, who was then in California, and it was Yogananda who told Robert Adams that Ramana was his Guru.

https://ftp.mysticalprinciples.com/Herb_Fitch_1972_Realization_of_Oneness/Herb_Fitch_1972_Realization_of_Oneness_1A_Only_The_Presence_Is_Present.mp3

. . said...

I concur, Joel Goldsmith is a good example of an authentic Christian mystic. I still have two books by him on my book shelf. Since I am content with Bhagavan's teaching alone I'll donate these two books to someone who is interested in that particular expression.

venkat said...

Hi Carlos

I've also participated in some of those forums. The main disagreement that I have found is that the Sw Dayananda followers, all emphases jnana is knowledge, in the sense of being fully convinced of the intellectual understanding of sruti. They argue that liberation is to be found in the correct unfolding of the scriptures. As such they dismiss the need for kevala nirvikalpa samadhi as a requisite achievement - which I think Bhagavan would as well. But they certainly wouldn't agree with Bhagavan's teaching of the vichara "who am I" or the concept of summa iru or cessation of the mind / thoughts.

The alternative viewpoint expressed is that this is more than just intellectual understanding - that it is a fundamental de-conditioning and transcendence, which cannot be 'done', except through self-enquiry. This is most evident in yoga vasishta.

And then there are some who drift in and out of these forums, expressing disdain at all the discussion, and instead insisting that this is about some kind of mystical experiential realignment, where everything is seen to be one. Typically some form of deep meditation is the prerequisite for this. Normally the implicit undertone is that they have realised and achieved something, which all the other poor fellows on the forum can never get to, lost as they are in their intellectual verbiage.

I would concur that some of Bhagavan's, Muruganar's, etc writings could be interpreted in the way you have. But to be honest, I have never across in these advaitic discussions or books / commentaries the concept that the world ceases to be perceived on enlightenment (apart from saying that the experience of kevala nirvikalpa samadhi is necessary). If you can recollect an advaitic text or commentary that sets this viewpoint out clearly, I would be sincerely interested to know.

Thanks.

Mouna said...

Hi Venkat,

The discussion I was talking about is on the Advaitin list from years ago. If I find those threads I’ll let you know.

Best,
C

Anonymous said...

What to make of this?...Hmmmm...

J Krishnamurti in Aug 1922
-------

Then, on the 17th August, I felt acute pain at the nape of my neck and I had to cut down the my meditation to fifteen minutes. The pain instead of getting better as I had hoped grew worse. The climax was reached on the 19th. I could not think, nor was I able to do anything, and I was forced by friends here to retire to bed. Then I became almost unconscious, though I was well aware of what was happening around me. I came to myself at about noon each day. On the first day while I was in that state and more conscious of the things around me, I had the first most extraordinary experience. There was a man mending the road; that man was myself; the pickaxe he held was myself; they very stone which he was breaking up was a part of me; the tender blade of grass was my very being, and the tree beside the man was myself. I almost could feel and think like the roadmender, and I could feel the wind passing through the tree, and the little ant on the blade of grass I could feel. The birds, the dust, and the very noise were a part of me. Just then there was a car passing by at some distance; I was the driver, the engine, and the tyres; as the car went further away from me, I was going away from myself. I was in everything, or rather everything was in me, inanimate and animate, the mountain, the worm, and all breathing things. All day long I remained in this happy condition. I could not eat anything, and again at about six I began to lose my physical body, and naturally the physical elemental did what it liked; I was semi-conscious.

The morning of the next day (the 20th) was almost the same as the previous day, and I could not tolerate too many people in the room. I could feel them in rather a curious way and their vibrations got on my nerves. That evening at about the same hour of six I felt worse than ever. I wanted nobody near me nor anybody to touch me. I was feeling extremely tired and weak. I think I was weeping from mere exhaustion and lack of physical control. My head was pretty bad and the top part felt as though many needles were being driven in. While I was in this state I felt that the bed in which I was lying, the same one as on the previous day, was dirty and filthy beyond imagination and I could not lie in it. Suddenly I found myself sitting on the floor and Nitya and Rosalind asking me to get into bed. I asked them not to touch me and cried out that the bed was not clean. I went on like this for some time till eventually I wandered out on the verandah and sat a few moments exhausted and slightly calmer. I began to come to myself and finally Mr. Warrington asked me to go under the pepper tree which is near the house...

-----------Etc, etc, etc...

Krishnamurti: The Years of Awakening, pp. 157-160.




Sanjay Lohia said...

Padam, I wrote: ‘...even a new-born infant may have an ego, although it is extremely weak, but the jnani has absolutely no ego’. You replied by writing: ‘Without an ego the "new-born infant" could not be born in a "new body" again’.

Yes, I agree. I should not have written ‘even a new-born infant may have an ego’. The ‘may’ needs to be deleted. So the correct sentence should be as follows:

‘… even a new-born infant has an ego, although it is extremely weak, but the jnani has absolutely no ego’.

As you imply, without an ego we cannot experience ourself as a body. Since the infant does experience itself as a body, even though its dehatma-buddhi (the 'I am this body' idea) is generally quite weak, the new-born does come into existence with an ego. Thank you for correcting my mistake.

Sanjay Lohia said...

Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan was an Indian philosopher and statesman who was the first Vice President of India (1952–1962) and the second President of India from 1962 to 1967.
One of India's most distinguished twentieth-century scholars of comparative religion and philosophy, his academic appointments included professor of Philosophy at the University of Mysore, the King George V Chair of Mental and Moral Science at the University of Calcutta and Spalding Professor of Eastern Religion and Ethics at University of Oxford.

His philosophy was grounded in Advaita Vedanta, […] He has been influential in shaping the understanding of Hinduism, in both India and the west, and earned a reputation as a bridge-builder between India and the West.

Radhakrishnan was awarded several high awards during his life, including a knighthood in 1931, the Bharat Ratna, the highest civilian award in India, in 1954, and honorary membership of the British Royal Order of Merit in 1963. (Extracted from Wikipedia)

My note: As you can see, S. Radhakrishnan was an outstanding person. However, let us look at his last days. The following is extracted from the latest issue of Sri Ramana Jyothi, April 2018. In this issue, V. Ganesan writes in an article:

President T. N. Venkatraman of Sri Ramanasramam and Mrs. Talyarkhan, a great devotee of Bhagavan, visited Dr. S. Radhakrishnan, former President of India, at his residence in Madras (now Chennai). Sri Radhakrishnan was old, fragile and in great depression when they visited him. He was inconsolably crying and tears were streaming down his cheeks. His grief was about his wasted life despite his erudition and vast knowledge. […]

I am not sure how true is this account, but it has a great lesson for us. Isn’t the condition of Radhakrishnan in his last days a reminder to us that any amount of worldly achievements will not make us happy? We may also cry in our last days because of our wasted life, if we do not try to know what or where the real happiness is. As Bhagavan once said:

Only by knowing Self can we attain real and enduring happiness; so long as we do not know Self we will be endlessly courting and experiencing misery; therefore, our first and foremost duty is to know Self. All other efforts will only end in vain.

Bhagavan says, ‘All other efforts will only end in vain’.



aikya said...

Salazar,
you ask "Even though Bhagavan quoted a tiny part of the NT, does that make it an impeccable source in its entirety? Of course not! Then why making this comment? "

Generally one should give one's judgement not carelessly but only after gaining of a minimum of knowledge about the topic. We all certainly assume that Jesus was no jumping jack and that the Christian Church as such is not to be considered as an association of jokers.
Because I am neither the pope himself nor well-versed in the Bible, I quote a paragraph of Michael's article of Thursday, 29 May 2008 God as both nirguna brahman and saguna brahman:

"This essential nature of God was revealed by him in the Bible when he said to Moses, "I AM THAT I AM" (Exodus 3.14). Therefore, when it is said earlier in the Bible that God created us "in his own image" (Genesis 1.27), the words 'his own image' mean his true image or essential nature, which is 'I am', the infinite fullness of being, the plenitude of consciousness, and the boundless ocean of pure love and perfect happiness. Thus the fact that God is our essential being, our own real self, our true 'I am', is clearly revealed in the Bible, as it is in the Vedas and all the other major scriptures of the world."

John C said...

Hi Venkat
Thanks very much for your reply. You make very good points as always. Certain things I think are true or take to be true I personally find helpful in terms of vichara.

I find the idea that the world ceases when I experience myself as I really am encourages me to turn my attention within compared to outwards.

I find eka jIva vada to be helpful as it helps remove interest from the world and helps me turn my attention on the perceiver of the world instead.

I also find the belief that the only free will I have is to turn my attention outwards or inwards helpful. I appreciate this gets rid of the whole karma theory and from what I understand is not what Bhagavan taught. But I do find it helpful never the less.

But I appreciate this last belief makes a mockery of my entire comment!

I just like to keep things as simple and practical as I can.

All the above I think are helpful but I can't be sure if any of them are correct, the truth or concrete facts.

To end I will explain why I personally think that perception of the worlds ceases when I experience myself as I really am.

My understanding is the (mind/ego) is a wrong knowledge of what I am. Bhagavan has said the ego is the problem and manonasa is the goal. The world only exists during waking and dream when the ego rises and it subsides in deep sleep. So waking and dream appear and disappear within or on the deep sleep state. Waking and dream are therefore nothing but a dualistic misperception of deep sleep which is what I really am.

Bhagavan has said deep sleep is the true state and his teaching is about how to destroy this seeming ego by looking at it carefully and seeing it is not what it appears but is nothing but our self and never actually existed. If no world exists or is perceived during deep sleep I can only conclude that when the ego ceases to be or to rise the world will no longer appear as it is a projection and dependent on the projector. So deep sleep is the one true state and what I really am. At present I am seeing myself not as I am but as a body, mind, world and experiencing the ignorance of duality.

So when I discover what I am waking and dream and worlds are gone and deep sleep remains. However what is deep sleep really like? The ego was not there to recall it so it appears as a blank or a gap.

The question I find interesting is what is deep sleep?
It is beyond my limited mindful comprehension and I can only take Bhagavan's word that is eternal self aware happiness..

I wish I had the maturity to my attention 180 degrees once and for all and give up my worthless copper penny for an unlimited treasure.

Why do I cling so tight to my penny?

All the best Venkat.

John.

John C said...

Hi Salazar.

I must point out I was not criticizing you.
I actually share your belief about free will.
I think the problem is identifying with the actions the body does and thinking we have choice about what it does or doesn't do.
But I think everything just happens and is a pre written script.

I don't think I have any more control of this bodies actions than anything else I perceive. The birds sing, the trees drop their leaves and the wind bows regardless, everything just happens.

I think I am the doer which is the problem.
Identifying with a body and also identifying with its actions is the problem I think.

If I identify with a character in a projected movie everything that character does is pre determined. I am just along for the ride so to speak. Bad example I know.

The only choice I think I have is to turn attention outwards or within.

But I just can't be 100% certain it is true, I just find believing this helpful in terms of vichara for me personally.

I was only interested as I just thought if you believe this you wouldn't believe that the world does not cease when you experience yourself as you really are.

But like with me if you find it helps you turn within it is good regardless of whether it is true or not.

All the best.
John


padam said...

Sanjay Lohia,
okay to your correction about the new-born infant's ego.

Regarding your quotation of Bhagavan's urgent warning "Only by knowing Self can we attain real and enduring happiness; so long as we do not know Self we will be endlessly courting and experiencing misery; therefore, our first and foremost duty is to know Self. All other efforts will only end in vain.", I would express a pessimistic view on it: we will believe it only after own experience.
But let me be an optimist:
We will find the optimal solutions to all our problems !
Arunachala.
By the way, which magazine/journal is "Sri Ramana Jyothi" ? Is it published only in India ?

infinite freedom said...

John C,
why bowing down to the blowing wind ? Smile.

infinite freedom said...

John C,
if your wish to be possessed of the unlimited treasure becomes sufficiently strong your maturity too will grow to an increasing extent as simultaneously to the same extent ignorance will decrease. At least I hope so. All the best.

Sanjay Lohia said...

Padam, Sri Ramana Jyothi is a journal published by Sri Ramana Kendram, Hyderabad (South India).

John C said...

Thank you infinite freedom.
All the best to you too.
John :)

Purification of mind does NOT reflect on one’s outward behavior, a purified mind is no mind and any perceived behavior is illusion said...

aikya, you did not get my point but no harm done. Everybody approaches concepts from their own unique perspective. Anyway, from your answer it is clear that you do not understand what I was trying to say. And by now my interest has gone to even more elaborate I already did. All the best.

Purification of mind does NOT reflect on one’s outward behavior, a purified mind is no mind and any perceived behavior is illusion said...

John C, I did not feel criticized by you, how did you arrive at that conclusion? I simply did not understand you. Thanks for elaborating and you make a good point.

From the "blowing wind" :-)

"infinite freedom", all the best to you too :-)

John C said...

O.k Salazar.
Best wishes.
John :)

Sanjay Lohia said...

McNay [interviewer]: So the whole time we are creating: I am creating you; you are creating me, is that what you are saying?

Michael: The observer – the one who is observing all this is creating all this. You say ‘I’ and ‘you’ as if there are two of us, but in your experience Michael is an object – Michael is something other than you. You assume Michael is aware…

Supposing if you were dreaming, and we were having this conversation in your dream, you would assume that Michael you are talking to is aware. But when you wake up you realize that Michael you were talking to was just your own mental projection. According to Bhagavan, there is only one ego – the one who sees all this.

• Extracted from: 2018-03-19 Conscious TV interview with Michael James: The Real Behind All Appearances

My note: I am the only experiencer of all this. This perhaps is the most difficult to accept. However, Bhagavan clearly says, if the ego comes into existence, everything else also comes into existence. So there is only one ego which is creating all this.

Bhagavan's teachings are like a 'cultural shock' to us. Before we came across Bhagavan's teachings, we believed that this world has always existed, and will continue to exist long after we are gone, However, Bhagavan says, 'you bring your world with you, and you take it away with you when you cease existing as this ego'. I call this a 'cultural shock' metaphorically. This is still difficult to digest, although we believe Bhagavan at one level.



aikya said...

Salazar,
no matter, no harm.

padam said...

Sanjay Lohia,
thanks for Ramana Jyothi.

When you say "I am the only experiencer of all this.", so who are you and what remains for me to experience ?

infinite freedom said...

Salazar,
when the wind blows ...I bow to both you and John C. :-)

venkat said...

Hi John

Thank you for your note. I think you have it spot on - whatever helps you turn within must be right. I need to do that more, and stop being so affected by what is outside.

Best,
venkat

venkat said...

Anonymous

"What to make of this?"

Not too much.

K certainly didn't, and he wouldn't want us to. He never referred to "the process" again.

He never advocated trying to achieve any mystical experience - just to see oneself clearly. And for that he said never to follow any guru, because truth can only be found by yourself.

That is the problem with those who believe they have experienced something mystical, and now have the wisdom to teach. JK only turned the questioner back on himself, albeit in a different way than did Bhagavan.

Anonymous said...

Venkat, thanks for your response...

It has become de rigueur for aspirants to guru status to first claim some sort of mystical experience and then declare themselves enlightened.

There are hundreds of such gurus "giving satsang" whatever that is... certainly lucrative for them.



Sanjay Lohia said...

Padam, you asked: ‘so who are you’. Bhagavan says that I am beginningless, infinite and unbroken being-awareness-happiness, but I currently experience myself as this ego, this person called Sanjay.

You also ask, ‘what remains for me to experience’? I am not sure what exactly you mean by this. Do you mean that if I (Sanjay) am the only experiencer, are you (Padam) not experiencing anything? Bhagavan says there is only one ego, and since I experience myself as an ego, you must be just my imagination. You are an object of my experience, but so is the person Sanjay an object of my experience. However, I cannot say anything about you with any degree of certainty. Bhagavan has told us all this as a hypothesis, but we have to verify the truth of this hypothesis by our investigation.

However, as long as I am interacting with you, I have to assume that we both are experiencing each other, because this is how it seems to me now. In other words, I cannot say that I alone am real but you (Padam) are just a figment of my imagination. You are as real as me, as far as our interactions go.



padam said...

Sanjay Lohia,
though you say you are experiencing yourself "as this ego, this person called Sanjay" the question arises whether one can simultaneously experience himself as "this ego and a specific person (Sanjay). Of course we consider the multitude of persons as having come up from one ego. Nevertheless it seems to me that you actually experience alone as that person called Sanjay. The ego represents more or less the background from where the persons arise.
On the other hand you say " ...since I experience myself as an ego" and by using the indefinite article "an" you are hereby possibly supposing that there could be an indefinite number of egos.
Because you claimed to be "the only experiencer of all this" I jokingly asked anxiously whether there would remain any rest for me to experience. Of course you made that assertion from the viewpoint of (the only) one ego in which my person shall certainly be included.

John C said...

Hi Venkat,

"I need to do that more, and stop being so affected by what is outside."

Me too, guilty as charged :)
Best wishes.

John

Sanjay Lohia said...

Michael: Somehow Bhagavan’s teaching caught me; I cannot take any credit for it. It is just like a moth. It just flies around the flame; it just can’t leave the flame. It is fascinated by the flame. To me, Bhagavan’s teachings are so so fascinating that it just caught me, and I just can’t escape it now. However, I do not have the courage to go close enough to this flame to be consumed.

Practically, it means I still have desires and attachments; I still have interest in being aware of phenomena. So long as there is even the slightest desire to be aware of any phenomena, we have not surrendered ourself completely.

The liking to be aware of phenomena is the very nature of the ego. We can wean our mind from interest towards external things, but ultimately we have to cut at the root. The root is the ego, and the ego is the false self-awareness ‘I am this’.

• Extracted from: 2018-03-19 Conscious TV interview with Michael James: The Real Behind All Appearances

My note: Michael is suffering from a highly contagious disease, namely love for Bhagavan’s teachings. So beware of Michael, because if we go too close to him, we are also sure to catch his disease. I have also become like a moth flying around the flame. I also find Bhagavan’s teachings so fascinating; I too like to dwell on them as much as possible. You can infer this by the number of comments I post on this blog.

However, I also still have desires and attachments; I also still have interest in being aware of phenomena. This interest is still there like a solid rock. Our practice of self-investigation, however, will break and shatter this rock to pieces: that is, our practice will ultimately destroy all our other interests, and Bhagavan, the eternal and ever-bright flame of jnana, will eventually consume us. Till this happens, our job is to go around this flame as much as possible, with the confidence that the power of the flame will surely do its job if we stick around it.


para veli said...

According Bhagavan Maharishi the (whole) world and the whole universe is only thought.
Therefore it is in all our interests to know what (a) thought is.
If thought is to be considered as merely any temporary appearance and if I regard myself only as a part of the world then I fear for my assumed eternal existence.

So, for Heaven's sake, who am I ?

Sanjay Lohia said...

Padam, you ask: ‘the question arises whether one can simultaneously experience himself as this ego and a specific person (Sanjay)’. The ego is the subject which is aware of all objects, whereas his person (Sanjay) is an object. However, this person is the first object that this ego is aware of, and this ego takes itself to be this object (Sanjay).

When I say, ‘I am Sanjay’, by saying so I am saying that I am one with Sanjay. So in my outward turned view, I cannot say that these two – the ego and Sanjay - are separate. I would love to be corrected if this is not true. Although when we are doing our manana and are trying to practise atma-vichara, we need to try to separate these two. That is, while practising self-investigation we should try and focus all our attention on our ego (‘I’), by trying to ignore the person we take ourself to be.

You question the use of my term 'an ego' by saying, ‘On the other hand you say " ...since I experience myself as an ego" and by using the indefinite article "an" you are hereby possibly supposing that there could be an indefinite number of egos’. Yes, Michael mostly writes ‘the ego’ thereby implying that there is only one ego. However, we cannot accurately convey the meaning of these things through any words. Though there is only one ego (‘the ego’), we seem to assume that there are many egos.



* said...

The meaning or significance of ‘I’ is God.
The experience of ‘I am’ is to Be Still. - (Talk 226)

“I AM that I AM” sums up the whole truth.
The method is summed up in “BE STILL”. - (Talk 363)

The Bible says, “Be still and know that I am God”. Stillness is the sole requisite for the realisation of the Self as God. - (Talk 338)

My note: Be the flame, not a moth.

. . said...

My note: Don't be the flame, just BE :-)

* said...

I'm good with that. : )

padam said...

Sanjay Lohia,
so one may hit upon the idea that the ego obviously was not satisfied with its monotonous, solitary unity/undivided-ness and therefore seemingly decided to split into many persons. Perhaps it was out of surfeit or even of plain high spirits or bare desire that the one ego became the subject in order to be aware of separate objects and beings (persons).

When you say "So in my outward turned view, I cannot say that these two – the ego and Sanjay - are separate." you surprisingly do not exclude the unity of ego and person.
So in case of assuming no difference between ego and person you just would get into difficulties while you are practising self-investigation and with it trying to ignore the person you take yourself to be.

infinite freedom said...

Salazar,
when you recomend "just BE": realizing the blissful self is a very good appeal.
However, without breaking beforehand the spell of false illusions under which we are we will not obtain peace supreme.

infinite freedom said...

Salazar,
sorry, it should read ...recommend "just BE": to realize ...

. . said...

Infinite freedom, true and not true, that depends how you look at it. You say, “Without breaking beforehand the spell of false illusions under which we are we will not obtain peace supreme.”

Who says that something has to be broken beforehand? Who would break that?

If your mind believes it has to break something it will try “to break” for eternity and you’ll never be free. That’s why it is extremely important to not allow the thought come up that one is not Self right here right now. Bhagavan urged to not follow or believe that thought or any other thought for that matter.

If people here speak from the absolute viewpoint then they (I’d say for most or all) do not want to imply they know but to emphasize that we cannot entertain the belief that we are that ego and bound. That is a trap and the very reason why we are bound!

To entertain the idea, “my ego has risen” and therefore, “I have to do this and that” is sabotaging that what Bhagavan tried to convey. That doesn’t mean to run around and state, I am free, but to quietly go within and stop entertaining any concepts including “what has to be done” or “I am doing something”.

Well, we have talked about that many times and the same questions keep coming up. The nature of the mind which cannot grasp that what it tries to “break through” to. It absolutely can’t!

The mind just plays games with itself ;-)

infinite freedom said...

Salazar,
"Who says that something has to be broken beforehand? Who would break that? "
Okay, there have been never any illusion, no bondage. Therefore we do not need any liberation. Congratulations ! When you don't (want to) see any illusion then all is okay.

What is the gain of such a view ?

Seeing the supremacy of omnipresent illusion with a clear head is still not synonymous with "entertaining the idea“my ego has risen” and therefore, “I have to do this and that.
Incidentally I did not demand the destruction of the spell of illusions by the mind itself. Perhaps Bhagavan's grace will do it - provided we do not block its ever radiating helpfulness and effectiveness.
Of course I agree with you on the point "but to quietly go within and stop entertaining any concepts including “what has to be done” or “I am doing something”.
Why worry about the mind's games ? :-)

. . said...

Infinite freedom, we ARE Self right here right now and there is nobody who needs liberation. Bhagavan said that multiple times. That what thinks it needs liberation (= the ego) does not exist. It truly does not exist even when your mind and perception tell you a different story.

And it is not that easy in the way of “I do not want to see any illusion” because that what tries to not see any illusion is the illusion itself (= the ego). You do not grasp the full impact and meaning of Bhagavan’s statement that we are Self RIGHT NOW. On the back of the cover of Padamalai there is a quote by Bhagavan which states that there is no greater illusion than the belief that one will attain liberation at some later time.

Also, if you keep believing “you” (by the way where is that you?) need to do something then you keep the subject-object relationship alive and that MUST and WILL keep you bound!

The subject ego tries to apprehend the object Self. That is impossible!!!

Atma-vichara is NOT a subject-object related technique, if you do atma-vichara with the background idea (as subtle it can be) “I DO” atma-vichara you have already FAILED to do proper inquiry.

But enough, it took me years to fully conceptually grasp that, and it was only by the Grace of Bhagavan that it became clear. My ego may want to think it had arrived at hat conclusion but that is not the case.

See, I say “my ego”. Uh, oh, I acknowledge the ego, what is that all about? ;-)

That is the paradoxical nature of the situation and mind cannot and will never fully grasp that. Since it doesn’t exist it doesn’t have to ;-)

. . said...

infinite freedom, in my first response I said it is true and not true depending how we look at it. Here is the different look: Despite that we are Self right here and now there is also the “I am this body idea” which seemingly obstructs Self.

As long as we believe to be that body Self must allude us. To lose the “I am this body” idea is not that easy. Because every sensation, every perception sustains the belief to be that body.
Feeling hungry or thirsty: I am this body. Feeling cold or hot: I am this body. Feeling pleasure or pain: I am this body.
Somebody posted here his experience of peace while walking through a snow covered mountain area. Alas even that experience of peace is an illusion and is sustaining the “I am this body” idea. The pleasurable sensations of watching that landscape and walking through it are sustaining that very idea.

That “I am this body” idea won’t disappear by itself, Grace and some (seeming) effort of the ego is required to lose that imagination.

infinite freedom said...

Salazar,
yes,yes, the self is all. Don't worry - be happy.
No vasanas - no sadhana - no purification.

infinite freedom said...

Salazar,
my a bit sarkastic reply was given in ignorance of your recent comment in which you offered the "different look".

* said...

"That “I am this body” idea won’t disappear by itself, Grace and some (seeming) effort of the ego is required to lose that imagination."

But Ramana says: "Stillness is all that is required to realize the Self."

In Stillness, hunger, thirst, cold, hot, etc., might be there, but no 'I am this body' feeling those things. Turning the attention to Stillness could be called effort, but any effort beyond that is not Stillness. Once the effort to turn is made, 'our duty is to be'.

It can also be helpful to see 'phenomena' as not other than ourself, but AS ourself. That's what it is, of course - aka prarabdha karma - all there to lead us 'within', albeit in a seemingly roundabout way. Grace at the beginning, as Ramana says, Grace at the end. Remember, the Guru pointing us back to ourself is also a phenomenon of our own self.

By the way, it sounded to me like tanmaya-nishtha was having a 'glimpse' of the Real, rather than just an illusory experience, but I could be wrong.

infinite freedom said...

Salazar,
though of course my peaceful experience on the snowy mountain then was only illusionary and temporary and as such of no everlasting value, I did it accept as a gift of the present moment. Certainly it was at most manolaya. Nevertheless, that experience has not failed to leave its mark on the experiencing ego-mind; - as the proverb has it: constant dropping wears away the stone.

Mouna said...

*,

you said: “"But Ramana says: "Stillness is all that is required to realize the Self.” “

If one doesn’t put this quote into context, it becomes very confusing, because what does it mean to be still according to Bhagavan?
To give you the context, and if we assume that Bhagavan said so (this passage is from Talk #363) here it is the complete quote:
"Your duty is to be: and not to be this or that. “I AM that I AM” sums up the whole truth. The method is summed up in “BE STILL”. What does “stillness” mean? It means “destroy yourself”. Because any
form or shape is the cause of trouble. Give up the notion that “I am so and so”.


Notice that stillness, in this context, and according to Bhagavan, means “destroy yourself”.
Next question is, how do we destroy ourselves?
For that you need to start reading Ulladu Narpadu or Nan-Yar? or Upadesa Untiyar… works that put the emphasis on atma-vichara or self-attentiveness/self-investigation as an actual practice and the only means (with self-surrender) to achieve that destruction.

To sum up, it’s easy to say Be Still to everything (what can be easier than that, right?)
It is another story to destroy the ego-sense and the illusion that you are a person writing your commentary, and sometimes imagining that is still...

Mouna said...

*,

(following up on my previous comment)

I just remarked that the original quote from Talks is not even the same as the one you quoted!!!
Yours seems to be taken out from many websites of "Ramana Maharshi quotes" and not from the original quote from Talk 363 which doesn't read "Stillness is all that is required to realize the Self." (a little bit as someone was saying recently about the phrase going around a circle, ending up with a different idea!!)

Please correct me if I'm wrong

* said...

"Next question is, how do we destroy ourselves?"

Be still.

Mouna said...

""Next question is, how do we destroy ourselves?” Be still.”

Easy way out to avoid a conversation about misquoting Bhagavan...

Good luck then.

Purification of mind does NOT reflect on one’s outward behavior, a purified mind is no mind and any perceived behavior is illusion said...

*, I believe that you are confused about some points and that you are not honest with yourself. If you have it all figured out, what are you doing here on this blog?

Sorry, I just don't buy it :-)

* said...

We're all exactly where we're supposed to be, Salazar. That's how it functions. I thought you had that much figured out!

Nothing to be sorry about though, I have nothing to sell. : )

upadhi-unarvu said...

The title of this article is:
"If we investigate the ego closely enough we will see that it is only brahman, but however closely we investigate the world we can never thereby see that it is brahman."
Does that mean that the world is not brahman or is herewith only pointed out that investigation of the world concerns the false object ?

Sanjay Lohia said...

Devotee: Is the decision to practice self-investigation our decision, or is it the work of grace?

Michael: It is very difficult to tell the difference between them because God is not something outside - God is our own real nature. Grace or God is the love that our real nature has for itself. So it is our own love for our real nature which is drawing us into this path.

Bhagavan has written hymns on Arunachala in which he has expressed devotion in seemingly dualistic language. He is praying to Arunachala for grace. But you can see the dualistic experience and the underlying non-dualistic experience beautifully woven into those verses.
Ultimately, even Bhagavan who appears outside is within our own self. Because our mind is going outward, our real nature has appeared outside in the form of Bhagavan to tell us: ‘Turn within’. So it is all grace!

But grace is not something coming from heaven or somewhere. Ultimately, grace is our own love to be happy. We all love to be happy. That is what is driving our practice of self-investigation.

^ Extracted from: 2018-03-19 Conscious TV interview with Michael James: The Real Behind All Appearances



. . said...

I’d like to add that “to see 'phenomena' as no other than our self, but AS our self” as mentioned by “*” is not Bhagavan’s teaching and cannot work and will keep one deluded.

Why? Because who would try to ‘see the phenomena as no other than our self’ but the ego? It is a subject-object relationship and cannot work.

But I have the suspicion that “*” (based on his comments and evasive answers to direct questions) is not acknowledging that his ego is rising every day. If he actually is doing that then no argument can help him but the grace of Bhagavan.

I like Mouna’s recent comment that we come to this blog to not “teach” each other things, or to argue about certain concepts, but to explore our understanding in a mutual respectful way. Now I am guilty in the past of not following that spirit but we all learn from our mistakes and as long as we can be sincere and authentic Bhagavan will look out for us.

I truly appreciate Michael’s patience and comments; I always learn something from it.

Sanjay Lohia said...

What is it that is present here and now? It is ‘I’. What makes the present ‘present’ – whether we are talking about the present place or present time – the presentness of the present moment and the presentness of the present place is only ‘I’. So these are just clues that Bhagavan has given us. However, the practice is only self-attentiveness. All comes back to focussing on ‘I’.

The exact present moment is an infinitesimally small interface between the past and future. Where the past ends and the future begin there is no gap there; it is just an infinitesimally small moment. It is so small that it is not a moment at all. In that momentless-moment no change can occur, because change can occur only in the flow of time, which is from past to future.

What can exist in the momentless moment is nothing that changes. What is the only thing that never changes? That is ‘I’, the pure self-awareness. So in order to investigate the truth of the present moment, we have to investigate ourself. Who am ‘I’ who makes the present moment present?

*~* Edited extract from the video dated April 4, 2018

My note: We exist here and now, and therefore our practice has to be done here and now. We can investigate ourself anywhere or anytime, because we exist everywhere or at all times.

Sanjay Lohia said...

Sorry. Please read: *~* Edited extract from the video dated April 7, 2018

advaita purna said...

In other words:
Without the permanent presence of the real 'I' one could not be aware of the present here and now.
We are lucky, we never are outside of the presence of the Lord - pure self-awareness.
I hope that it may be so.

Sanjay Lohia said...

Devotee: Bhagavan doesn’t perceive the ego, right? He doesn’t perceive us as individual consciousness. So when we pray to Bhagavan, does he ever hear our prayers?

Michael: Yes and no. We see Bhagavan as other than ourself, don’t we? Even if we believe Bhagavan is our real self, we now feel ourself to be something other than our real self. Our real self is infinite, indivisible and immutable self-awareness, but do we experience ourself as such? No, we experience ourself as a little person existing in a small period of time, a small place in space.

Therefore so long as we see ourself as other than Bhagavan, our prayers to him are heard by him. Our prayers to him are as true as the truth of the ego that prays. When we know that we are not what we seem to be, then we will also know that he never heard anything. All he hears, all he sees, is only himself.

But that doesn’t mean that prayers are useless. Why have we not merged in Bhagavan now? It is because we don’t want to be. We are not yet ready to surrender ourself. So by praying to Bhagavan for what he wants to give us – that is, by praying for the annihilation of our ego – we are using our willpower to consent to what Bhagavan wants to give us.

Prayer is a longing in our heart - longing to return to our source - that longing is real prayer. That is real bhakti. That is the driving force behind our self-investigation. So in that sense prayers are heard. Not that Bhagavan is literally hearing our prayers. In fact, Bhagavan is the source of our prayers. Our prayers arise in us because of our love for Bhagavan. He is that love which is in our heart.

# Edited extract from Michael’s video dated April 7, 2018

Note: Our participating in this blog is itself a prayer. We post these comments because of our longing and love for Bhagavan. However, our love for Bhagavan originates from Bhagavan himself. We borrow a little bit of love from Bhagavan and offer it back to him, and then claim: ‘see, we are great devotees of Bhagavan’. In fact, we are nothing, and Bhagavan is everything or rather the only thing.




advaita purna said...

Sanjay Lohia,
you claim "In fact, we are nothing, ...".
No, you are completely wrong because I am purna, the entire whole, the totality of all that is.

* said...

'Do not think that the drop alone becomes the Ocean, the Ocean too, becomes the drop!' -Rumi

No one is on a path, everyone is a path - Self, never other than Self, returning to Self.

ocean / cloud / rain / river / ocean

Sanjay Lohia said...

Advaita Purna, yes, we are poorna (complete). Bhagavan has made this clear. However, as long as we experience ourself as this ego, we will always experience ourself as apoorna (incomplete). In order to get back to our poornatva (completeness) we need to decimate our ego, and in order to decimate it, we need to investigate it. Pure and simple!

advaita purna said...

Sanjay Lohia,
because actually purnatva (completeness) was never lost there is no need to get it back.

. . said...

advaita puruna said, "because actually purnatva (completeness) was never lost there is no need to get it back."

In a way that is true, however since we imagine (as this mind/body) that we really have lost completeness we have to eliminate or lose that imagination. And that is through decimating and finally eliminating of the source of that false imagination = ego.

* said...

"You do not grasp the full impact and meaning of Bhagavan’s statement that we are Self RIGHT NOW. On the back of the cover of Padamalai there is a quote by Bhagavan which states that there is no greater illusion than the belief that one will attain liberation at some later time. Also, if you keep believing “you” (by the way where is that you?) need to do something then you keep the subject-object relationship alive and that MUST and WILL keep you bound!"- Salazar

"...however since we imagine (as this mind/body) that we really have lost completeness we have to eliminate or lose that imagination. And that is through decimating and finally eliminating of the source of that false imagination = ego." - Salazar

And you call me confused? 'Ego' itself is a false imagination, a lie. Be honest with yourself, Salazar.



. . said...

*, both statements are true and valid, that is due to the paradoxical nature of "I".

If you feel confused or bewildered by that just be quiet :-)

* said...

To say that "I" has a paradoxical nature is also a lie.

. . said...

Who or what thinks (and states) that something is a lie?

. . said...

The ego is proclaiming that it is a lie. That's just too funny :-)

I wonder, how does that work that the ego/mind denies its own existence while communicating that is does not exist? Huh?

Or what is *'s mind/ego believing what is proclaiming and believing something is a lie or not?

* said...

Only truth separates truth from a lie.

"...know the truth and the truth will make you free."

. . said...

You didn't answer my question. Your ego keeps evading unpleasant questions, it likes to keep itself deluded like that.

As I said before and now it is clear, you do not acknowledge that your ego rises every morning and only the grace of Bhagavan can help you with that.

* said...

And you still believe in an ego. You still believe a lie.

advaita purna said...

Salazar,
I actually have not lost completeness because I am now full of desires which reduce me to slavery. The imagination to be a body-mind-complex has devastating consequences.
Carnal desires pester me during the day and not seldom also during night and turn me into a miserable animal which is ruled by its physical impulses. Only prayers to Bhagavan let me feel relieved at least temporarily. Presumably that desires were not sufficiently satisfied in previous lifes and keep me now on the go. One has no idea how much my mental and emotional peace is spoiled by that phenomenon - and also my willingness/readiness to pursue scrupulously self-investigation. Nevertheless, most of the time I am able to refuse to obey the burning urge to satisfy my longing to stay in any woman's company. Sometimes the thought occured to me that without that proneness possibly Siva himself would take me on his lap.

. . said...

Yes, I believe in a "lie". Now it is not really a lie but let's not get into semantics here.

And you believe into this lie too, "deep down". You are just not aware of that.

What else can be said? Mind can be really tricky and clever, so many pitfalls .....

* said...

"And you believe into this lie too, "deep down". You are just not aware of that."

What else can be said? Know yourself, and you'll know what I'm aware of.

. . said...

advaita purna, I can only say to have faith in Bhagavan. What helps me with my desires is that I do not give them even more importance by loathing them and wanting them to be gone. That what wants the desires to be gone is also that what enjoys the desires.

You must have pretty good karma though otherwise you would not be interested into Bhagavan's teaching and coming to this blog.

advaita purna said...

Salazar,
as you say "That what wants the desires to be gone is also that what enjoys the desires", but in truth the ego does not want the desires to be gone but rather being enjoyed by satisfaction of them .
As you seem to assume quite well I too consider myself (as a person) as an highly inconsistent mixture of an intense spiritual seeker and on the other hand of one who is marked with the blemish of deep rooted attachments. I am eager to know what at the end turns out to be. Yes, I have faith in Bhagavan.

Sanjay Lohia said...

None of us have yet succeeded because our attempts so far have been half-hearted. All that is required is one second of wholehearted effort – that is, wholehearted effort to see ourself. With all our love, we should be concerned with nothing but seeing ourself as we actually are. If we do it with so much wholeheartedly, that will be the end of the story.

If we try we will be unfailingly laid to our source, because when we are turning our attention towards ourself, we are turning our attention towards the light of awareness which illumines everything. So we cannot go astray. That bright light of awareness ever shining in our heart will itself guide us.

We have to follow that light until we reach our destination. And what is our destination? That light itself is our destination. And what happens when we reach our destination? We will be swallowed by that light and only that light will remain, because even now only that light actually remains.

# Edited extract from Michael’s video dated April 7, 2018

Note: Michael says that on this path we cannot go astray. Therefore on this path of self-investigation, there can be no yoga-brashtas (those who have fallen from the path of yoga). Once we have correctly understood the actual practice – which is a practice of keeping our attention on ourself as much as possible – and are trying to practise it wholeheartedly, we cannot go it the reverse gear again.

If we do not practice enough, we may be delayed in reaching our destination. However, we are on the right path, and success is just around the corner. Bhagavan is walking in front of us and is leading our way, as it were. So we cannot go astray.

Sanjay Lohia said...

Bhagavan’s teachings are very-very simple and at the same time extremely radical. That is why so long there are people to understand Bhagavan properly, Bhagavan’s teachings will never become a religion, because if they become a religion they will be misunderstood. It is only by being understood that they can become popular.

Go out into the street and start telling people what Bhagavan has taught us. You will not be very popular. Nowadays there are many so-called advaita teachers, would-be gurus, teaching an extremely diluted version of advaita. It is only by diluting the truth that they can make it palatable, and without making it palatable they can’t run a business.
Wheras Bhagavan has taught us advaita in its purest form.

Modified extract from Michael’s video dated April 7, 2018

Note: There is a saying in Hindi which means that there are certain doctors who will give their patients whatever these patients want. In other words, these doctors are not really concerned about curing their patients. They are more concerned about retaining their 'clients'.

Likewise, certain would-be gurus always want to keep their audience happy by giving them what they want. There was one Rajaneesh (Osho) who recommended his ‘devotees’ to indulge in plenty of sex. Gurus like these will obviously be very popular.

However, Bhagavan was very clear. He used to say one has to first cure one’s blindness before hoping to cure other’s blindness. He teaches in verse B15 of Guru Vachaka Kovai (verse 10 of Upadesa Tanippakkal):

Only one who is saved can save living beings in this world; whereas anyone else is like a blind person who is [trying to be] a guide to [another] blind person.

* said...

What can be included in One other than One, and yet, what can One not include?

* said...

I thought it was a life or death choice, but in eternal life, there is no death.

* said...

: )

Purification of mind does NOT reflect on one’s outward behavior, a purified mind is no mind and any perceived behavior is illusion said...

Sanjay Lohia, thank you for your comments. Another contemporary "guru" who recommends sex and fully explore the sensations of the body is Ed Muzika. The one who claims to have transcended even Turiya or Turiyatita .....

There is quite some confusion out there and we can call us lucky to be devotees of Bhagavan.

para veli said...

Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharishi gave up his body - today 68 years ago.
To the weeping contemporaries he said "Where can I go ? I am here".
On the one hand it is said that after his last breath (around 8 h 47 p.m.) a bright starlight was seen climbing up in northern direction to the peak of the Arunachala hill. So did one aspect of his light really leave the people of Ramana's ashram back on earth then on 14 April 1950 ?
At that particular day I still had no body on earth because the "birth" has occured only in October 1950. I do not have any memory about the physical death of Sri Ramana and his simultaneous "return" in the realm of the kingdom of "heavenly hosts" when I was then only a spirit in the world of spirits.
On the other hand it is said Bhagavan's light is rather the substantial foundation of our real pure self-awareness and cannot therefore vanish at all.
So what are actually the true facts ?

aikya said...

Salazar,
what means to be a devotee of Bhagavan ?

* said...

"So what are actually the true facts ?"

"what means to be a devotee of Bhagavan ?"

What can the answer to either question be but this?





para veli said...

*,
instead of giving me a sphinx-like smile please tell me your answer.

Purification of mind does NOT reflect on one’s outward behavior, a purified mind is no mind and any perceived behavior is illusion said...

aikya, find the answer of your question in your heart. Be well.

aikya said...

*,
you like speaking in oracular riddles, isn't it so ?

aikya said...

Salazar,
thanks, be well too.

* said...

Ramana's simplest teachings are also self-evident. He teaches that you know you exist, that Self ALONE exists, and that ego does not exist. Investigate as long as it takes, and ego will be found not to exist. Ramana says this at the beginning. That means that you are the Self that ALONE exists. The simplest truth has to somehow be accepted. It's as simple as that. That's a good thing!

aikya said...

*,
why should the "Self that ALONE exists" need to "accept the simplest truth" ?

* said...

"why should the "Self that ALONE exists" need to "accept the simplest truth" ?"

Why, indeed!

"There is no greater mystery than this - ourselves being the
Reality we seek to gain Reality. We think that there is something
hiding our Reality and that it must be destroyed before the Reality
is gained. It is ridiculous." - Ramana, Talk 146

Sanjay Lohia said...

Michael: What can be a more urgent, and more interesting, and more important subject than investigating and knowing what this ‘I’ is?

Extracted from Michael’s video dated April 7, 2018

Note: Yes, very true. As we go on practising, self-investigation will become an addiction, and subsequently, all our other addictions will start losing its hold on us. What is the cure for this addiction to self-investigation? It is, paradoxically, more and more of self-investigation. Only such intense and sustained practice will destroy our ego, and only when our ego is destroyed will all our addictions end. What is addicted to things? It is our ego, and once it is destroyed no addictions can remain thereafter.

Sanjay Lohia said...

We ourself are what is always shining – what is here and now – what is clearer than the daylight. ‘I’ shines even in complete darkness; ‘I’ shines even in the seeming darkness of sleep. ‘I’ is the one light that never fades, the one sun that never sets.

It was claimed that the sun never sets on the British Empire, but every sun will set sooner or later, except the one real sun, which is the sun of awareness.

# Edited extract of Michael’s video dated April 7, 2018

Purification of mind does NOT reflect on one’s outward behavior, a purified mind is no mind and any perceived behavior is illusion said...

One of the many pitfalls of seekers is that the do not consider Bhagavan's teaching in its entirety, but select certain parts and omit other. I.e. Bhagavan stressed that because of vasanas the ego rises and therefore we have to do atma-vichara until the 'I am this body idea' vanishes.

As long as there is an awareness of the sensations of the body and the simultaneous interpretation of the mind, that idea is still there. That 'I am this body' idea does not go away that easily. If someone wants to test that premise, just get stabbed in the stomach by some villain and see how you react. Are you oblivious about it or are you screaming for help and, out of fear of death and to get rid of excruciating pain, are you longing for help?

How many people would be oblivious (within) after getting stabbed?

Mouna said...

”One of the many pitfalls of seekers is that the do not consider Bhagavan's teaching in its entirety, but select certain parts and omit other.”

It’s a pity that these blogs don’t have Facebook emoticons... because I would have put a big blue thumb up plus a heart for this paragraph Salazar!

Mouna said...

(disclaimer)

”It’s a pity that these blogs don’t have Facebook emoticons...”

I didn’t really mean it other than as a figure of speech. Facebook “like” emoticon is one of the biggest personality trap ever...

Mouna

para veli said...

Salazar,
regarding your extremely vivid and compelling illustration of get stabbed in the stomach: Every human being would naturally fight to save his life. Since we as such humans are from birth extremely strong bound by our body we have to do endless atma-vichara.
Bhagavan was obviously no human.

Purification of mind does NOT reflect on one’s outward behavior, a purified mind is no mind and any perceived behavior is illusion said...

para veli, this [extreme] example demonstrates two things, the greatness of Bhagavan and all of the other sages, and what it really entails to be free of the "I am this body" idea.

I hope that this example eradicates all silly notions of those who believe that a mere superficial change of belief would yield Jnana.

And yes, Bhagavan is not human, nor are we. And endless atma-vichara is required according to Bhagavan. To really transcend the body-idea we need to hold onto the first thought continuously until through the grace of Bhagavan the 'I am this body' idea vanishes.

para veli said...

Salazar,
I am not sure whether even after the death of the body one looses one's grip on the 'I- am-the-body-idea' (completely). Fortunately we are destined to transcend that fundamental error at some time - whatever the cost.

aikya said...

Sanjay Lohia,
so let us try to be aware of the sun of awareness which never arises nor ever sets.
For that we should spare neither expense nor effort and therefore not give rise to the spectre of failing because of the ego's persistent reluctance.

Sanjay Lohia said...

Aikya, yes, we should try to be aware of the sun of awareness which never arises nor ever sets. This is the only practice Bhagavan recommended wholeheartedly.

Sanjay Lohia said...

Bhagavan is the one God who needs no intermediaries, because he is shining in the heart of everyone. Bhagavan said:

Arunachala Ramana is that which is shining as arivu (pure awareness) in the hearts of all living beings from Vishnu down to the smallest ant.

So he is ever accessible God. He is the God whose temples are never closed – who never excludes anyone because of their religion or caste or anything.

Extract from Michael’s video dated April 7, 2018

Note: It I well know that when Bhagavan was in the body he was accessible 24 X 7. The doors of his hall where he sat were always open. Until his last breath, he insisted that his darshan* was never denied to anyone. His compassion for his devotees was limitless.

Likewise, even now Bhagavan is accessible 24 X 7 x 365, as it were. As he resides in our hearts, we can walk into his presence whenever we want. We just have to turn our gaze within ourself, and he there. He is that arivu (pure awareness) without which we can never exist.

* In Hinduism, darshan is the act of beholding a deity, divine person, sacred object or natural spectacle, especially in a physical image form.

advaita purna said...

Sanjay Lohia,
usually a year contains only 52 weeks.

Sanjay Lohia said...

Advaita Purna, yes, I should have written: ‘Likewise, even now Bhagavan is accessible 24 X 7, as it were’, or I could have instead written ‘Likewise, even now Bhagavan is available all 365 days in a year’. Thank you.

Sanjay Lohia said...

The real spiritual investigation can only be done in our heart and not in our mind

What does this mean? We may think a lot about the spiritual truths, but put very little of these into practice. To illustrate, we know that Bhagavan has described our ego as chit-jada-granthi. So we may just think that we are chit and not jada and so on, and feel that we now know everything about this term chit-jada-grathi, and therefore our job is over. We may thus do such exercises only in our mind and leave it in the mind itself, without taking it further.

In contrast, we should continue with our experiments in our heart. Which means we should think: ‘Bhagavan has said that the ego is chit-jada-granthi, but can I directly experience this granthi within me?’ Thus we should directly try to experience this granthi within. When we look closely within ourself, we will directly experience that we now seem to be this chit-jada-granthi. We experience ourself as awareness, but this awareness is closely mixed up with our awareness of our body and its other adjuncts. So we are directly aware of this knot.

Bhagavan has asked us to continue this experiment further by trying to focus all our attention on the awareness aspect of this knot. It may seem difficult in the beginning, because this knot is too closely interwoven to be easily untangled. However, the more we try to focus our attention on ourself, the more this knot will start becoming loose, and the more it becomes loose the more we will be able to experience our awareness in relative isolation. We need to directly experience such isolation within us; it is not enough to just understand this process intellectually.

To conclude, Bhagavan path is a path of investigation, and therefore it is not different to any other scientific investigation. We need to investigate and find out the reality of ourself, and until we are able to do so, our self-investigation should continue. We can take the help of our mental investigation, but the real laboratory of all our spiritual experiments should be the heart and not the mind. All answers lie within our heart if we care to look deep within.

Mouna said...

Chit-jada-granthi... we think about it as two different chords united by a knot. When in fact it is just one chord which the magician made us believe that it was two separate ones united by the knot. Once unraveled, this knot, it becomes evident that there is, and always was, only one piece of chord, not two.

Purification of mind does NOT reflect on one’s outward behavior, a purified mind is no mind and any perceived behavior is illusion said...

I'd like to add that we should not investigate any objects, that includes an imagined knot.

Is there really an "awareness aspect" of the knot or just awareness? If I understand Bhagavan correctly, he does not want us to look at any aspects (which can only be imagined) but at that what we really are.

Maybe Michael can clarify that, I could be wrong.

Mouna said...

Salazar,

Read a few comments back in this thread. I asked Michael about investigating the ego vs investigating self/awareness. He responded, and his response addresses exactly what you asked him to clarify in this last comment.

Also and by the way, the "knot" analogy I described earlier is just a way of saying that there are not two things ("chit" or awareness on one side and "jada" or insentient on another, two chords united by a knot). There is only being/awareness, only one rope which "ego" the magician make us believe there are two ("me" conscious and an unconscious world out there) as in that famous magic trick.

. . said...

Thank you Mouna, I vaguely remember having read that. I guess my memory is not the best anymore. This body/mind is getting old :-)

I'll check it out again. Also, I concur with the rest of your comment.

Mouna said...

S, :)
_/\_

Sanjay Lohia said...

In reply to the comments by Mouna and Salazar on the topic of chit-jada granthi:

Yes, as Mouna implies, there is only one thread, or there is only pure awareness, but it now seems to densely entangled with its jada (insentient) adjuncts, even though all these jada adjuncts are just our imagination, and are therefore not real. For all practical purposes we seem to be this chit-jada-granthi, and therefore we need to try and separate all our insentient adjuncts from ourself in order to experience ourself as we actually are.

We need to start our spiritual practice from the standpoint of our current experience and then gradually move on to what is real.

Salazar questions: ‘Is there really an "awareness aspect" of the knot or just awareness?’ Bhagavan has answered this in the book Maharshi’s Gospel (chapter Aham and Aham-Vritti):

The ego functions as the knot between the Self which is pure consciousness and the physical body which is inert and insentient. The ego is therefore called chit-jada granthi. In your investigation into the Source of Aham-vritti, you take the essential Chit aspect of the ego; and for this reason the enquiry must lead to the realization of the pure Consciousness of the Self.

. . said...

Thank you Sanjay Lohia, I just re-read that chapter, the "Gospel" is one of my favorite texts by Bhagavan.

I approach Bhagavan's teaching mostly intuitively and do less referencing with the mind. But it is always good to get a "confirmation" of one's intuition in form of a written concept.

Mouna said...

Sanjay, greetings

"Yes, as Mouna implies, there is only one thread, or there is only pure awareness, but... "

I have a small observation (with all due respect), that I've been noticing for a while back, that you might (or might not) pay attention to. When you comment about someone's comments, there is almost always a Yes... but...
It is an interesting feature of the person trying to affirm itself through what it was said. It might look like adding something that actually wasn't required because there wasn't a question implied in the statement.
I am not saying that what you say after that but... doesn't make sense, usually it does, but I thought as an interesting note or feature to observe, that actually almost all of us do, and it actually feels not only as a show-off but also a little bit undermining the exposed commentary.
I know your intentions are crystal good clear though, but I just wanted to pint this out.
Thanks,
M

. . said...

Too funny Mouna that you are mentioning that: I originally had planned my own, “yes…but” response to Sanjay’s comment, “We need to start our spiritual practice from the standpoint of our current experience and then gradually move on to what is real.”

It is not advised by Bhagavan to see atma-vichara as a practice which moves to anything including reality. Yes, the ego has risen and we seemingly “experience” something which is not real, nonetheless any movement implies a subject-object relationship and will be confined in the realm of imagination never arriving at Self. Atma-vichara has no start and no end, only lesser practices and aids do and that’s why they are only good on a temporary basis.

But then I just let it go and posted my former comment. I guess now I just posted my “yes..but” comment anyway :)

Sanjay Lohia said...

Bhagavan says in Nan Yar?: ‘If we look removing all thoughts, solitarily there is no such thing as mind. Therefore thoughts alone are the svarupa (own form) of the mind’. So thoughts are the very nature of the mind. Elsewhere Bhagavan analyses it a bit more deeply. He says, ‘the mind is nothing but thoughts, but of all thoughts the thought ‘I’ is the first thought. Therefore what the mind essentially is just the thought called ‘I’’.

Bhagavan further says that excluding thoughts separately there is no such thing as ‘world’. When Bhagavan uses the term ‘thought’, he uses it in a much broader and deeper sense than the normal sense in which it is used.

For example, people often say, ‘Oh, I was meditating and I was without thoughts for five minutes’. When we use thoughts in this context, we are just talking about mental chatter. When there is less mental chatter, we say we were without thoughts. But according to Bhagavan, the ‘I’ who is meditating, the body that is sitting in meditation, the room in which it is sitting, all these are nothing but thoughts. So except sleep, we are never without thoughts.

In the sixth paragraph of Nan Yar?, Bhagavan says, ‘What does it matter how many thoughts appear. Whatever may appear we should investigate, ‘To who it appears’, and thereby we should turn our attention towards ourself. Anything that appears and disappears is a thought, and therefore we should ignore them by focussing all our attention on ourself.

Edited extract from the video dated March 10, 2018



* said...

D: How can I control the mind?
M: There is no mind to control if the Self is realised. The Self shines forth when the mind vanishes. In the realised man the mind may be active or inactive, the Self alone exists. For, the mind, body and world are not separate from the Self; and they cannot remain apart from the Self. Can they be other than the Self? When aware of the Self why should one worry about these shadows? How do they affect the Self?
D: If the mind is merely a shadow how then is one to know the Self?
M: The Self is the heart, self-luminous. Illumination arises from the heart and reaches the brain, which is the seat of the mind. The world is seen with the mind; so you see the world by the reflected light of the Self. The world is perceived by an act of the mind. When the mind is illumined it is aware of the world; when it is not so illumined, it is not aware of the world. If the mind is turned in, towards the source of illumination, objective knowledge ceases, and the Self alone shines as the heart. The moon shines by reflecting the light of the sun. When the sun has set, the moon is useful for displaying objects. When the sun has risen no one needs the moon, though its disc is visible in the sky. So it is with the mind and the heart. The mind is made useful by its reflected light. It is used for seeing objects. When turned inwards, it merges into the source of illumination which shines by Itself and the mind is then like the moon in the daytime. - Maharshi's Gospel

* said...

A visitor: “The Supreme Spirit (Brahman) is Real. The world (jagat)
is illusion,” is the stock phrase of Sri Sankaracharya. Yet others
say, “The world is reality”. Which is true?

M.: Both statements are true. They refer to different stages of
development and are spoken from different points of view. The
aspirant (abhyasi) starts with the definition, that which is real
exists always; then he eliminates the world as unreal because it is
changing. It cannot be real; ‘not this, not this!’ The seeker ultimately
reaches the Self and there finds unity as the prevailing note. Then,
that which was originally rejected as being unreal is found to be a
part of the unity. Being absorbed in the Reality, the world also is
Real. There is only being in Self-Realisation, and nothing but being. - Talk 33

Sanjay Lohia said...

In the first sub-section of section 1 of Vicāra Saṅgraham Bhagavan says:

Setting down the corpse-body as a corpse, and remaining without uttering ‘I’ even by [physical or mental] voice, if one keenly investigates what it is that now shines as ‘I’, then in [one’s] heart a kind of spurippu [a fresh clarity] alone will itself appear to itself [or to oneself] without sound as ‘I am I’. Without leaving that [fresh clarity of self-awareness], if one just is, it will completely annihilate ahaṅkāra-rūpa jīva-bhōda [the sense of individuality in the form of ego], which is called [that is, which experiences itself as] ‘body is I’, and [then], like fire that catches on camphor, it will itself also be extinguished. This itself is said by sages and sacred texts to be mōkṣa [liberation].

If we light a fire on camphor and let it burn for a sufficiently long time, the camphor will all get evaporated, and as a consequence, the fire that was burning the camphor will also get extinguished. In this example, the camphor represents our ego, and the fire represents our practice of self-investigation. If we investigate our ego with sufficient intensity, it will be reduced to nothing just like camphor, and once our ego is destroyed we can no longer practise self-investigation, because the ego which was practising it will no longer be there to practise it.

Therefore our job is to light the fire of self-investigation on the camphor-like ego and to keep the fire burning until our ego is fully evaporated.


* said...

Talk 609:

Lady Bateman and others came to the hall at about 3-30 p.m. In a few
minutes she asked in writing if one is nearer to Pure Consciousness
in deep sleep than in the waking state.
M.: The sleep, dream and waking states are mere phenomena
appearing on the Self which is itself stationary and also a state of
simple awareness. Can anyone remain away from the Self at any
moment? This question can arise only if that were possible.
D.: Is it not often said that one is nearer Pure Consciousness in deep
slumber than in the waking state?
M.: The question may as well be: Am I nearer to myself in my sleep
than in my waking state?
For the Self is Pure Consciousness. No one can ever be away from
the Self. The question is possible only if there is duality. But there
is no duality in the state of Pure Consciousness.
The same person sleeps, dreams and wakes up. The waking state is
considered to be full of beautiful and interesting things. The absence
of such experiences makes one say that the sleep state is dull. Before
we proceed further let us make this point clear. Do you not admit
that you exist in your sleep?
D.: Yes, I do.
M.: You are the same person that is now awake. Is it not so?
D.: Yes.
M.: So there is a continuity in the sleep and the waking states. What
is that continuity? It is only the state of Pure Being.
There is a difference in the two states. What is that difference? The
incidents, namely, the body, the world and the objects appear in
the waking state but they disappear in sleep.
D.: But I am not aware in my sleep.
M.: True, there is no awareness of the body or of the world. But you
must exist in your sleep in order to say now “I was not aware in my
sleep”. Who says so now? It is the wakeful person. The sleeper cannot
say so. That is to say, the individual who is now identifying the Self
with the body says that such awareness did not exist in sleep.
Because you identify yourself with the body, you see the world
around you and say that the waking state is filled with beautiful and
interesting things. The sleep state appears dull because you were
not there as an individual and therefore these things were not. But
what is the fact? There is the continuity of Being in all the three
states, but no continuity of the individual and the objects.
D.: Yes.
M.: That which is continuous is also enduring, i.e. permanent. That
which is discontinuous is transitory.
D.: Yes.
M.: Therefore the state of Being is permanent and the body and the
world are not. They are fleeting phenomena passing on the screen
of Being-Consciousness which is eternal and stationary.

* said...

Talk 609, continued:

D.: Relatively speaking, is not the sleep state nearer to Pure
Consciousness than the waking state?
M.: Yes, in this sense: When passing from sleep to waking the ‘I’
thought must start; the mind comes into play; thoughts arise;
and then the functions of the body come into operation; all these
together make us say that we are awake. The absence of all this
evolution is the characteristic of sleep and therefore it is nearer to
Pure Consciousness than the waking state.
But one should not therefore desire to be always in sleep. In the
first place it is impossible, for it will necessarily alternate with the
other states. Secondly it cannot be the state of bliss in which the
Jnani is, for his state is permanent and not alternating. Moreover,
the sleep state is not recognised to be one of awareness by people,
but the sage is always aware. Thus the sleep state differs from the
state in which the sage is established.
Still more, the sleep state is free from thoughts and their impression
to the individual. It cannot be altered by one’s will because
effort is impossible in that condition. Although nearer to Pure
Consciousness, it is not fit for efforts to realise the Self.
The incentive to realise can arise only in the waking state and efforts
can also be made only when one is awake. We learn that the thoughts
in the waking state form the obstacle to gaining the stillness of sleep.
“Be still and know that I AM God”. So stillness is the aim of the seeker.
Even a single effort to still at least a single thought even for a trice goes
a long way to reach the state of quiescence. Effort is required and it
is possible in the waking state only. There is the effort here: there is
awareness also; the thoughts are stilled; so there is the peace of sleep
gained. That is the state of the Jnani. It is neither sleep nor waking
but intermediate between the two. There is the awareness of the
waking state and the stillness of sleep. It is called jagrat-sushupti.
Call it wakeful sleep or sleeping wakefulness or sleepless waking or
wakeless sleep. It is not the same as sleep or waking separately. It is
atijagrat 1 (beyond wakefulness) or atisushupti 2 (beyond sleep). It
is the state of perfect awareness and of perfect stillness combined.
It lies between sleep and waking; it is also the interval between two
successive thoughts. It is the source from which thoughts spring;
we see that when we wake up from sleep. In other words thoughts
have their origin in the stillness of sleep. The thoughts make all the
difference between the stillness of sleep and the turmoil of waking.
1. Jagrat of jagrat.
2 .‘Sleep of sleep’. It is beyond jagrat and sleep as well as in them.
Go to the root of the thoughts and you reach the stillness of sleep. But you
reach it in the full vigour of search, that is, with perfect awareness.
That is again jagrat-sushupti spoken of before. It is not dullness; but
it is Bliss. It is not transitory but it is eternal. From that the thoughts
proceed. What are all our experiences but thoughts? Pleasure and
pain are mere thoughts. They are within ourselves. If you are free
from thoughts and yet aware, you are That Perfect Being.
Lady Bateman appreciated the discourse and thanked Sri Bhagavan.
Later, she said that she would be leaving the next day.
Sri Bhagavan smiled and said: You do not leave one place for another.
You are always stationary. The scenes go past you. Even from the
ordinary point of view you sit in your cabin and the ship sails but
you do not move. We see a picture of a man running several miles
and rushing towards us but the screen does not move. It is the
picture that moves on and away.

* said...

Talk 609, continued:

D.: I see, but I can understand it only after I realise the Self.
M.: The Self is always realised. Were Realisation something to be
gained hereafter there is an equal chance of its being lost. It will
thus be only transitory. Transitory bliss brings pain in its train. It
cannot be liberation which is eternal.
Were it true that you realise it later it means that you are not realised
now. Absence of Realisation of the present moment may be repeated at
any moment in the future, for Time is infinite. So too, such realisation is
impermanent. But that is not true. It is wrong to consider Realisation to
be impermanent. It is the True Eternal State which cannot change.
D.: Yes, I shall understand it in course of time.
M.: You are already That. Time and space cannot affect the Self. They are
in you; so also all that you see around you are in you. There is a story
to illustrate this point: A lady had a precious necklace round her neck.
Once in her excitement she forgot it and thought that the necklace was
lost. She became anxious and looked for it in her home but could not
find it. She asked her friends and neighbours if they knew anything
about the necklace. They did not. At last a kind friend of hers told her
to feel the necklace round the neck. She found that it had all along
been round her neck and she was happy! When others asked her later
if she found the necklace which was lost, she said, “Yes, I have found
it.” She still felt that she had recovered a lost jewel.
Now did she lose it at all? It was all along round her neck. But
judge her feelings. She is happy as if she had recovered a lost jewel.
Similarly with us, we imagine that we would realise that Self some
time, whereas we are never anything but the Self.
D.: I feel that I am transplanted into some other land than the earth.
Sri Bhagavan, while looking into some correspondence, heard it, smiled
and said: This is the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven
mentioned in the Bible and this world are not two different regions.
“The Kingdom is within you,” says the Bible. So it is. The realised
being sees this as the Kingdom of Heaven whereas the others see it
as ‘this world’. The difference lies only in the angles of vision.
D.: How can we deny the world and the people therein? I hear some
music. It is sweet and grand. I recognise it to be Wagner’s music.
I cannot claim it to be mine.
M.: Does Wagner or his music exist apart from you? Unless you are
there to say that it is Wagner’s music, can you be aware of it? Without
being aware of it, can it be said to exist? To make it more clear, do
you recognise Wagner’s music in your deep sleep? And yet you admit
that you exist in sleep. So it is clear that Wagner and music are only
your thoughts. They are in you and not out of you.

Mouna said...

Icus graalic said:

Lorem ipsum dolor. Sit amet curabitur tincidunt in dapibus mauris ac quae. Ultricies adipiscing gravida aenean ultrices elit. Tellus faucibus amet vivamus pede pede. Sit pulvinar at ipsum ut felis.

Montes ultricies wisi. Tempus tellus suscipit eget est ligula lorem non non pulvinar dictumst mauris laoreet fusce mauris. Placerat in donec. Dictumst mauris eget tortor elit sed lacus vestibulum nam. Neque pede venenatis. Eget praesent morbi. Sodales congue egestas. Malesuada sed dictum. Justo praesent erat tortor commodo et ullamcorper orci ac. Nisl mollis enim pretium wisi turpis tincidunt in sit sodales metus velit in tristique ac. Ornare sodales lobortis. Erat libero enim eget neque amet metus purus suscipit molestie vel ut. A gravida ornare. Imperdiet lectus adipiscing. Sollicitudin blandit donec tincidunt natoque convallis quam lorem libero justo sapien mollis. Et feugiat egestas. Metus mauris volutpat. Ac magnis elementum id varius amet. Urna tristique ante fusce asperiores arcu vestibulum morbi vel. Ornare donec vel sociosqu nisl aliquam. Dictum ultrices dui lorem massa lacus. Dignissim purus leo hendrerit magna urna. Nullam lorem urna. Vestibulum maecenas con. Wisi nisl proin suspendisse sed non.

Libero aliquam penatibus. Posuere ut tempor sem ipsum turpis laoreet libero ultrices justo nulla turpis velit id justo ut faucibus proin. Turpis est quis. Sit ad tristique. Aliquam magna et.

Lobortis nulla elementum. Vel dolor sed sed ultricies diam et eget laoreet. Facilisis elit est scelerisque pede soluta. Molestie dui tortor donec aenean aliquet curabitur turpis massa. Lorem risus porttitor. In euismod condimentum. Eum donec lorem. Adipiscing neque lobortis diam lobortis pellentesque. Lectus urna in. Nunc sed velit luctus rerum vitae. A viverra primis. Vulputate amet id purus consectetur in arcu hac lorem vel imperdiet in. Posuere in vehicula. In vivamus molestie. Consectetuer aliquam sit. Tincidunt mauris odio nunc at vestibulum nunc a quisque. Quis felis quis. Sapien nam wisi vestibulum non euismod dolor vivamus taciti. Sit mauris justo quia maecenas elit vitae quis mi sem sapien ut. Id nullam semper montes convallis nec vulputate erat leo. Eget nunc proin. Elit pretium quam. Eget molestie orci. Duis ut enim luctus sollicitudin velit. Egestas tellus fermentum eget maecenas risus. Hendrerit lorem pede ac at venenatis. In ipsum lectus eleifend laoreet tellus dolor porta risus. Dignissim facilisi pede arcu vel curabitur. Vitae pellentesque vulputate sed cras dolor id ultrices egestas. Bibendum lectus sit morbi inceptos risus vivamus sit sit. Arcu pretium lectus. Phasellus commodo class laborum libero mauris wisi torquent nulla pede dui purus elit suspendisse saepe. Aliquet pellentesque sit cursus diam fusce. Mauris ipsa arcu. Viverra nullam ipsum vestibulum pulvinar scelerisque urna nec pellentesque. Velit mauris in. Cras curabitur erat non nulla odio. Accumsan scelerisque id. Animi etiam fusce. Turpis pharetra aliquet in et porta veniam pellentesque magna sed magna hendrerit.

Facilisis pulvinar morbi. Pellentesque in blandit. Praesent tristique mauris ligula id vitae imperdiet et in. Fringilla felis tellus sem aenean vel. Mattis eu enim viverra nostra fames aliquam velit id. Velit ut varius sapien imperdiet voluptatem. Dui nullam fermentum. Molestie sed quisque. Massa curabitur sem mauris ac risus turpis vitae.

. . said...

Quod est valde ridiculam :)

Vertitis in puncto ad ineptias.

Mouna said...

Salasarus

potui plus conveniunt

Mounus

gargoyle said...

Color me stupid as I don't get it ????????????????????

Mouna said...

gargoyle, greetings

I think I owe you an explanation (you and all) about the previous comments.
I did "copy and paste" what is called, in graphic design, "Lorem Ipsum" or false text that designers use when they need to add text to a layout just to fill the space.
What followed was a nice and funny exchange with Salazar, in latin.
That's all.

As for why I did the copy and paste in the first place?
That I'll leave it up yo you to discover the reason.

M

Mouna said...

(addendum to previous comment)

Humor is one of the most important things in life that humans need to take seriously.

gargoyle said...

Mouna
Yes, I see the reason why. Though I was beginning to think I had lost my marbles.
Actually that may not be a bad thing~

Cheers

Pax vobiscum said...

Nihil novi sub sole.
O tempora o mores.

Mouna said...

This turned out to be a nice playground to hang around these days...

Sanjay Lohia said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sanjay Lohia said...

Our understanding of the practice is very important; we can practise as well as we understand the practice. People often believe that asking the question ‘who am I’ is the practice taught to us by Bhagavan. Bhagavan did not say ‘ask who am I’. He said ‘investigate who am I’. In other words, we need to turn our attention within to see to whom all this appears. It is the curiosity to see ‘who am I’ that is the driving force. Merely asking the question is not sufficient. We need to open the book of our heart, and look deep within to see what I am. So it all boils down to attention.

Attention is the supreme power, chit-shakti, which is the power of awareness. It is this power which has created this whole world. Because we attend to all these things, these things seem to exist. How the dream is created? It is created out of our own mind – by our interest in other things, we create this whole world and undergo so many experiences.

So it is our attention that creates this dream; it is our attention that creates this world. The same attention if we turn towards ourself will reveal the supreme knowledge and supreme happiness, which is our own real nature.

As long as we are dwelling on the question – who am I – they are just words or thoughts, which are something other than us. They appear and disappear. So nothing other than us can be what we actually are. We are not the question ‘who am I’; we are that to which ‘I’ refers to. So what is that?

# Edited extract from Michael’s video dated April 14, 2018

Note: Almost everybody (except perhaps Sadhu Om, Michael and few others) who talks about Bhagavan’s teachings recommend that whenever any thought occurs to us, we should ask ourself ‘who am I who is having these thoughts’ and so on. This is perhaps the most common misunderstanding about Bhagavan’s teachings. We should stop asking such questions and start investigating ourself.


Nota bene said...

Mouna, Salazar,
why do you exclude us non-Latinist from your conversation ?
We would like to read your recent comments in translation from Latin into English, if available.
Sic transit gloria mundi.
Per aspera ad astra...

Sanjay Lohia said...

That which is aware remains the same throughout. We have memories going back to quite early in our life. When we remember them we remember them as ‘I experienced this’. Though everything else has changed - our body has changed; our outlook on the world has changed; we have acquired so much knowledge and everything; but what is the centre of these things? It is the ‘I’ which is experiencing these things, and that ‘I’ remains the same.

We may not have memories of our past lives, but the ‘I’ that is experiencing this life, the ‘I’ that experienced its past lives and the ‘I’ that will experience its future lives remains the same. That is the one continuity throughout all these experiences.

~ Edited extract from Michael’s video dated April 14, 2018

aikya said...

Sanjay Lohia,
"As long as we are dwelling on the question – who am I – they are just words or thoughts, which are something other than us. They appear and disappear. So nothing other than us can be what we actually are. We are not the question ‘who am I’; we are that to which ‘I’ refers to. So what is that? "
To use that attention summoned is indeed the point.

Anonymous said...

Sanjay Lohia,

You said: Attention is an extremely powerful tool; we can use it in whatever we like:


So will attention to the question "Who am I"? in the waking state be enough toward the destruction of the ego and the direct realization of atma-swarupa?

By
ajnani.

Sanjay Lohia said...

Anonymous, you ask, ‘So will attention to the question "Who am I"? in the waking state be enough toward the destruction of the ego and the direct realization of atma-swarupa?’

If we want to destroy our ego, or if we want to see that the ego does not exist even though it may seem to exist, we need to turn our entire attention within ourself. If we do so, Bhagavan has explained, this seeming ego will take flight. When we read the books available on Bhagavan’s teachings, we do get an impression that asking the question ‘Who Am I?’ is what ‘self-enquiry’ is. However mere asking of such questions cannot be termed ‘self-enquiry’.

Such questions may be an aid to turn with, but actual self-investigation begins only when we leave all such question behind and focus our entire attention on ourself alone. If we read the articles written by Sri Michael James or read his comments or listen to his videos, he has explained what real self-investigation is.

For example, Bhagavan teaches us in the paragraph 16 of Nan Yar?:

The name ‘ātma-vicāra’ [refers] only to [the practice of] always keeping the mind in [or on] ātmā [oneself].

The question ‘Who am I?’ is a mental activity, whereas self-investigation entails giving up all our mental activities. Our aim is to experience ourself as we really are, and we can do so only by remaining still without the least activity of mind, speech and body.




Purification of mind does NOT reflect on one’s outward behavior, a purified mind is no mind and any perceived behavior is illusion said...

Sanjay, if I may interject, you said, "[...] only by remaining still without the least activity of mind, speech and body."

That is not entirely correct, the body can be active and one can simultaneously investigate I. According to Bhagavan one can investigate I while working and even talking to others. Therefore we can do so by remaining still without the least activity of the mind - Full Stop.

amai parai said...

Salazar,
certainly investigating the ego while working and even talking to others requires and takes much practice.

. . said...

amai parai, that is correct. I can investigate I while driving a car or sitting in a café, but when I do a more complicated task my mind usually takes over. So far I was not successful to investigate I while I am talking to someone. The identification with the “talker” is too strong and currently prevents the investigation.

Nonetheless it is possible.

Sanjay Lohia said...

Salazar, while we are practising exclusive self-investigation – that is, when we try and withdraw our attention from everything external – and try to focus our attention only on ourself, our aim is to be still without the least activity of mind, speech and body.

However, we can also practise self-investigation while we are engaged in other activities. However even when we are trying to divide our attention between ourself and other things, the practice remains the same. The practice still entails no activity of mind, speech and body, even though these instruments may be acting according to its destiny.

Therefore when I wrote, ‘Our aim is to experience ourself as we really are, and we can do so only by remaining still without the least activity of mind, speech and body’, I was talking about the practice when we are trying to be wholly attentive to ourself. According to Bhagavan, even our thoughts are external to ourself. In such a state of exclusive self-attentiveness, we may not even be aware of what our body is doing because our attention is so wholly turned within. So in such a state, we are not concerned whether our body is active or inactive.

In this context, we can read and reflect on verse 4 of Atma-Vidya-Kirtanam:

To unfasten the bonds of action (karma) and so on and to bring about the destruction of birth and so on, rather than any path, this path is extremely easy! When one merely remains still, without the least action of speech, mind and body, ah! The light of self in the heart will be the eternal experience, fear will not exist, and the ocean of bliss alone will remain shining. Therefore, so very easy is the science of self! Ah! So very easy!

Sri Sadhu Om: All sadhanas other than self-enquiry involve some action to be performed either by the mind, speech or body, and hence one may experience some difficulty in using these instruments. But in the path of self-enquiry taught by Sri Bhagavan no action need be performed by any of these three instruments, and hence this path is the easiest of all paths.

Knowing self is not an action. Since self is ever naturally knowing itself, knowing self is nothing but being self (Upadesa Undhiyar v.26) and hence no action of the mind, speech or body is required to know self. If one merely remains still without performing any action by these three instruments, self-knowledge will automatically shine forth.

Since all actions of the mind, speech and body are due only to the rising of thoughts, since all other thoughts rise only because of the rising of the first thought ‘I am this body’, and since this first thought will vanish along with all other thoughts when one turns one’s attention towards it, in order to remain still all we need to do is to turn our attention towards the mere feeling ‘I’. Therefore, knowing self is so very easy.
(end of quote)

. . said...

Sanjay, then we are talking about the same thing. However by many it could be misunderstood if you do not elaborate in the way you did in your last comment.

So I am glad that I mentioned it and you explained it nicely.

Carlos Grasso said...

Salazar,

I am surprised by your last comment...
If you have the time it would be interesting to explain in which point you are talking about the same thing Sanjay is talking.
I don't see the connection in both points of view, that to my eyes seem even contradictory.

. . said...

That reminds me of a dialog I had on this blog with Roger Isaacs who was wondering how I could do vichara while driving a car. He said that I’d be a danger to people where ever I’d drive that car.

My response was that it is futile to go into that kind of thought process for the simple reason that there has to be no concern about that because it is entirely up to prarabdha if there is an accident or not.

It is delusional to believe that one could prevent an accident with one’s intentional “will”. That is impossible. It also implies the existence of a doer while we know there is not. There is no doer even if there is the belief that there is one.

And how can one successfully practice vichara as long as one is concerned about the outwards phenomenal world? That will be always an obstacle until one can let go and be entirely oblivious about the phenomenal world.

Hard to grasp and fathom for most.

tanmaya-appalam said...

Sanjay Lohia,
please write correctly Upadesa Undiyar (not Undhiyar).

"...since this first thought ('I am this body') will vanish along with all other thoughts when one turns one’s attention towards it, in order to remain still all we need to do is to turn our attention towards the mere feeling 'I'."

"Therefore, knowing self is so very easy." (end of quote)

Wouldn't it be nice if all our difficulties in our practice of vichara are mere fantasies/mental images/daydreams ?


. . said...

Mouna, I am just now seeing your comment. Really? I have no idea where you are seeing a contradiction.

So in an ideal "vichara scenario" one is not aware of one's surroundings and simultaneously one's body does what it supposed to do according to prarabdha and there could be even talk.

So with no awareness of one's surroundings there is no activity of mind, body and speech even though the body is acting and speaking ....

Carlos Grasso said...

Salazar,

"So in an ideal "vichara scenario” one is not aware of... “

WHo is that one (which I put in bold) that you are talking about?
Salazar? Salazar is always aware of phenomena except in deep sleep.
Oneself? for the self there is and never was a body/phenomena/etc… to start with.

The ajnani is an apparent in-between, that’s why the tool of the action to turn attention within to investigate if there is such one...

. . said...

Mouna, that "one" is Self and of course not proper advaita lingo since it is not an object.

I do not want to go into the whole Self/ego/mind etc. relation and, and, and, that was already done so many times here. In that regard I am so tired of advaita because it cannot be explained anyway in conceptual language.

Besides there is neither duality nor non-duality. No time, nor space. It is incomprehensible.

. . said...

So the first one is Self and the second one (in my sentence) is the ego/mind complex .....

What a contradiction. Take it or leave it, I certainly do not want to go into semantics here.

Mouna said...

Salazar,

I agree to the comment you did before the last.

Unfortunately, this blog (although no longer a blog but rather a forum) is 95% about semantics, otherwise we wouldn't have so many references to Bhagavan's writings explaining different meanings of different words... The other 5% of the time is people talking from their own experience (you are one of them in certain ocassions).

But as you said, let's leave it there brother, since we both understand what really exists behind all this. That is our real connection.

(ok, you made me get back to my Mouna "persona"!)

counter said...

Michael,
thanks for eliminating the former comment nr. 546 (advertising).
Please delete also this thank-you comment.

aikya said...

Salazar,
"Besides there is neither duality nor non-duality. No time, nor space. It is incomprehensible."
Even the incomprehensibility of that statement is scarcely ever comprehensible to specialists. Is there anything at all ?:-)

. . said...

Mouna, I approach the whole thing more intuitively even though Michael poo-pooed "intuition" as not being reliable and he is not entirely wrong with that.

However how reliable is the mind? Not reliable at all, no matter how "refined" it may appear. The term "refined" is anyway a false attribution for the mind, it never gets refined it just goes more out of the way what is confused with "refinement".

Out of the way of what? INTUITION. Intuition is coming directly from Self and it is not coming in a thought form. It incorporates both dyads and therefore can "comprehend" (in a no thinking form) contradictions which a mind can never do.

So why can it not be reliable? It is not reliable in the amount as the mind interferes with that intuition and tries to interpret or translate it. The less the mind interferes the truer the intuition until it is not intuition but Jnana. The mind is but an impostor and is the source of ignorance.

Mouna said...

Good point. Couldn't agree more my friend.

Anonymous said...

Sanjay Lohia,

(and also to others who commented),

Thanks for the replies to my question(to me and also to Salazar)on this matter of practice of Self inquiry of "Who am I?"and how to actually practice it? Your answers are much appreciated. I will read it a few times and then reply on it if I have any questions. But since we are on this topic of investigating into the Self or atma-vichara, is it also not absolutely necessary first to receive "Shaktipat" physically from a Self-realized (fully awakened and enlightened) Guru of the caliber and stature of Bhagavan Guru Ramana Maharshi directly in person?

By
ajnani

. . said...

Shaktipad is an infatuation of the tantrics and is basically nothing than an imagination of mind. It is not necessary at all, in fact it will usually distract people from that what they really are.

As I mentioned before, according to Bhagavan and also Thayumanavar, Kundalini Yoga (that is where "shaktipad' is used for) cannot result into Self-realization, it is impossible.

No true master like Bhagavan would even consider "giving" shaktipad, it is an empty and meaningless ritual which only fattens the mind/ego.

Anonymous said...

Salazar,

Thanks for your reply. Much appreciated.

ajnani.

Sanjay Lohia said...

Anonymous, as I have found out, shaktipat refers in Hinduism to the conferring of spiritual ‘energy’ upon one person by another. It is believed that shaktipat can be transmitted with a sacred word or mantra, or by a look, thought or touch.

Did Bhagavan indulge in such practices? No, he did not. In fact, he would say that a guru does not deserve to be called a guru if they think that they can transmit power to another. In our true nature, we ourselves are the supreme chit-shakti, and therefore there is no real power apart from us. So how can anybody give us something which is already ours? However, such practices can be useful to some in their early stages of spiritual development.

In other to receive the real shaktipat, we just need to turn our attention within and look at our own inner awareness. Can there be a better shaktipat than this? We certainly do not require Bhagavan’s physical form for this sort of transmission, if at all we can use such a term. Bhagavan is the supreme shakti which exists in our heart as ourself.

Don't we get fresh energy when we get up after a good night’s rest? Where does this energy come from? It comes from ourself. In sleep, our mind is merged in our source, so all its fresh energy can come from only our source, and our source is Bhagavan. So Bhagavan is giving us this sort of shaktipat everyday, isn’t he?

However, this is not to deny the benefits that people obtained by being in Bhagavan’s physical presence, but merely being in his physical presence cannot take us far. We need to follow unfailingly the path shown to us by our guru. Bhagavan has made this clear in Nan Yar? and other places.

«Oldest ‹Older   401 – 567 of 567   Newer› Newest»