Saturday 10 March 2018

If we investigate the ego closely enough we will see that it is only brahman, but however closely we investigate the world we can never thereby see that it is brahman

After telling me that he is now reading Ramana Maharshi: The Crown Jewel of Advaita by John Grimes, a friend sent me two WhatsApp messages saying:
I am ‘excited’. For the first time I read about or understood the distinction between the illusory nature of the world and that of the individual — John Grimes’ book p. 147 and 148. Seeing the rope as snake and seeing the white conch shell as yellow conch shell due to the unseen or unrecognized yellow glass. Wonderful explanation that struck me.

Brahman manifesting as world, but seeing only the world as real is illusion like seeing the rope as snake. The individual though only brahman, and also felt as I, but due to ego (yellow glass), mistaking I as me or mine.

Thus while both are illusions, the second one is that in aspect or nature of ‘I’, although I is seen or experienced. When the ignorance is removed, it will be known that it is brahman that was being all the while experienced hitherto also as ‘I’ — that is there are not two ‘I’s.
The following is adapted from the reply I wrote to him:

I assume that John Grimes had good reasons for using these two analogies as he did, but from what you have written his reasons are not clear, so I am not able to understand exactly what distinction he is making by means of these analogies. If anything I would think they should be used the other way round.

That is, however closely we investigate the world, we can never thereby see that it is brahman, just as however closely we look at a white conch through a yellow glass it will continue to seem as if it were yellow. Our ego is like the yellow glass, because so long as we see through the ego we will see only nāma-rūpa (names and forms: the phenomena that constitute the world) and not brahman as it is, which is just pure sat-cit-ānanda (existence-awareness-bliss) uncontaminated by nāma-rūpa. However, if we investigate the ego closely enough we will see that it is not the ego that it seemed to be but only brahman, just as if we look at an illusory snake closely enough we will see that it is not the snake that it seemed to be but only a rope.

The world (that is, the totality of all phenomena, whether in our present state or in any similar state, all of which are just dreams) is a secondary illusion, whereas the ego is the primary illusion that gives rise to this secondary illusion, because the ego alone is what perceives both of these illusions. Without the ego, no world would seem to exist, and so long as the ego seems to exist, some world or other will also seem to exist, because the ego seems to exist only when it grasps a body as ‘I’, and whatever body it grasps as ‘I’ appears along with whichever world it is a part of. The ego is therefore the root of all illusion.

The ego is an illusion that arises without any intervening media, whereas any other illusion such as a world appears and is perceived only through the intervening medium of ego. Therefore seeing a white conch as yellow when it is seen through the intervening medium of a yellow glass is an apt analogy for seeing brahman as all the phenomena that constitute this or any other world when it (brahman) is seen through the intervening medium of ego, whereas seeing a rope as a snake is in many respects an apt analogy for seeing brahman as the perceiving ego, because just as the snake is a direct (unmediated) misperception of the rope, the ego is a direct (unmediated) misperception of brahman, our real nature. However, whereas the snake is perceived by (and therefore seems to exist only in the view of) a separate observer, the ego is perceived by (and therefore seems to exist only in the view of) itself.

I think perhaps the reason why John Grimes used these analogies as he did is that he is viewing illusion from the perspective of the old advaita analysis, according to which the root problem is ignorance (avidyā) because it is what obscures our awareness of brahman, whereas according to Bhagavan’s deeper analysis what is ignorant is only the ego, so without the ego there is no ignorance, and hence the root problem is only the ego. The old advaita analysis is correct insofar as self-ignorance is the very nature of the ego, but it is misunderstood by many people to mean that ignorance is what gives rise to the ego rather than being nothing other than the ego itself. Therefore, since ignorance is not other than the ego, we cannot remove it without removing the ego, and since the ego is an incorrect awareness of ourself it can only be removed by awareness of ourself as we actually are.

Therefore as Bhagavan taught us, all we need do to remove the ego (along with its ignorance) is to look at it very carefully and thereby see that it is only brahman. This is best illustrated by the analogy of the rope that seems to be a snake, because all we need do to remove the illusion that it is a snake is to look at it very carefully and thereby see that it is only a rope. Therefore in the case of the ego this analogy illustrates three points: firstly, that what seems to be the ego is in fact only brahman; secondly, that we therefore cannot see brahman as it is so long as we see it as the ego; and thirdly and most importantly, that we can see brahman as it is (that is, as the pure and infinite self-awareness that we actually are) only by investigating the ego.

Though this analogy of the rope that seems to be a snake is often used to illustrate the point that what seems to be the world is in fact only brahman, and also the consequent point that we cannot see brahman as it is so long as we see it as the world (as Bhagavan explains in the third paragraph of Nāṉ Yār?), it is applicable to the world only to this extent, because if we try to extend it further it would seem to suggest that we can become aware of brahman as it is by investigating the world, which is clearly not the case. In this respect the traditional analogy of seeing a white conch shell as a yellow one because we are jaundiced (or because we are looking at it through a yellow glass, as per the variant of it used by John Grimes) is more appropriate, because our lack of clear vision due to our rising as the ego is what causes us to see brahman as the world, just as a lack of clear vision due to jaundice (or an intervening yellow glass) is what causes us to see a white conch as a yellow one, so to see brahman as it is we need to remove the ego, just as to see white conch as it is we need to remove our jaundice (or the intervening yellow glass).

However from what you write John Grimes does seem to point out one of the most important distinctions between the ego and the world, namely that the ego is aware of itself as ‘l’ (in other words, it is self-aware), which is the nature of brahman, whereas the world is jaḍa, so it is not aware of anything, either itself or anything else. The ego is self-aware because it is a confused mixture of pure awareness (cit), which is brahman, and adjuncts (upādhis) beginning with a body, which are all non-aware (jaḍa), and hence it is called cit-jaḍa-granthi, the knot (granthi) formed by the entanglement of cit with jaḍa, making them appear as if they were one.

Of these two elements that comprise the ego, cit and jaḍa, only awareness (cit) is real, because it is permanent and unchanging, whereas its jaḍa element consists only of adjuncts, which are transient and subject to change. Therefore the essence and reality of the ego is not any of its transient adjuncts but only its permanent self-awareness, so if it investigates itself keenly enough it will see that it is just pure and infinite self-awareness, and hence it will no longer seem to be the adjunct-bound and hence finite self-awareness called ‘ego’.

Since pure self-awareness (prajñānam) is brahman, as declared in the mahāvākyaprajñānaṁ brahma’ (Aitarēya Upaniṣad 3.3), the real nature of brahman will be revealed only when the ego investigates itself (its own self-awareness) and thereby dissolves back into its original state as pure self-awareness.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

After I had written this reply to my friend, he sent me photos of the portions of the three pages of the book that he had referred to (namely half of page 147, all of page 148 and half of page 149 of Ramana Maharshi: The Crown Jewel of Advaita), and by reading this extract I was able to understand what John Grimes intended to illustrate by using these two analogies in the way he did. That is, in the case of the rope-snake analogy, the identity of the rope is concealed entirely when it seems to be a snake, just as the nature of brahman is concealed entirely when it seems to be the world, whereas in the case of the white conch seen through a yellow glass, what is concealed by the intervening yellow glass is not the identity of the conch as such but only one of its features, namely its whiteness, just as what is concealed by the appearance of the ego is not the entire nature of Brahman but only certain aspects of its nature, because the ego is aware of itself as ‘I’, which is the nature of brahman, but is also aware of itself as a finite form, namely a body, which is contrary to the nature of brahman, since brahman is formless and hence infinite.

Self-awareness is the very nature of brahman, and the same self-awareness shines even in the ego, but not in the world. The only sense in which self-awareness shines in the world is that in the view of the ego, which is aware of itself as a person, all the other people and sentient beings in the world seem to be self-aware like itself, but the supposed self-awareness of other people is not experienced by the ego directly but is just inferred by it from their behaviour, so for our present purposes we can discount it. Moreover even in a dream all the other people and sentient beings seen by the dreaming ego seem to be self-aware, but when the ego wakes up from that dream it recognises that all those other people and their self-awareness were just its own mental projection, so if our present state is just a dream, as Bhagavan says it is, all the other people we see in this world and their seeming self-awareness are just our own mental projection.

Therefore for our present purposes we can say that the world as such is not aware of anything, neither of itself nor of anything else, whereas the ego is aware both of itself and of other things. Awareness of other things is not the nature of brahman, because in the clear view of brahman it alone exists, so there is no other thing for it to be aware of. Therefore brahman is aware of itself only as ‘I’, which is why Bhagavan often said that it shines as just ‘I am I’, whereas the ego is aware of itself as ‘I am this body’.

Therefore the self-awareness of brahman is concealed in the world, whereas in the ego it is not concealed but is nevertheless obscured, because instead shining as pure self-awareness (awareness of nothing other than itself) it shines as the adjunct-mixed self-awareness ‘I am this’, which entails being aware of things other than itself alone. In other words, the ego is self-awareness contaminated with awareness of other things (all of which seem to exist only in its view, just as everything perceived in a dream seems to exist only in the view of the dreamer), whereas brahman is self-awareness uncontaminated by even the slightest awareness of anything else whatsoever.

Therefore in order to be aware of itself as brahman, which is what it always actually is, all that the ego need do is to withdraw its attention from everything else by focusing it keenly on itself alone. In other words, we seem to be this ego only so long as we are aware of anything other than ourself (anything other than pure self-awareness, which is what we actually are), so when we are so keenly self-attentive that we are aware of nothing else whatsoever, we will see that we are just pure self-awareness, and hence the ego that we seemed to be will be dissolved forever in the infinite light of pure self-awareness, which is what is called brahman.

When we look outwards to see anything other than ourself, we seem to be this ego, but when we turn back within to see ourself alone, we will see that we are nothing other than pure and infinite self-awareness. This is why Bhagavan often used to say that the attention turned outwards is ego or mind, and that when the ego or mind is turned inwards it remains as ātma-svarūpa, the real nature of oneself.

In the words that Devaraja Mudaliar recorded in English, though Bhagavan would actually have spoken only in Tamil (and hence what Mudaliar refers to as ‘the Self’ is what Bhagavan would probably have referred to as ātma-svarūpa or perhaps just svarūpa, which means our real nature): ‘The mind, turned outwards, results in thoughts and objects. Turned inwards, it becomes itself the Self’ (Day by Day with Bhagavan 8-11-45: 2002 edition, page 37), and ‘The mind turned inwards is the Self; turned outwards, it becomes the ego and all the world’ (ibid. 11-1-46: page 106).

567 comments:

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* said...

If the lion appeared in the elephant's dream as a pussycat (in diluted form), the elephant would still be sleeping.

nama-rupa said...

venkat,
you mean Muruganar, Lakshmana Sarma and Sadhu Natanananda (not Murugunar, Karma and Natananda).

tanmaya-nishtha said...

Michael,
thank you for showing my frustration felt about the seeming fruitlessness of my vain efforts in the correct light. Your words of encouragement do good for me. I will certainly continue trying to pursue keen self-investigation. To be aware of ourself as pure self-awareness - uncontaminated by even the slightest awareness of anything else - is our indispensable aim.

Mouna said...

Venkat, greetings,

If I may join the conversation you are having with Michael.
This discussion is going on for ages, even since Shankara, about how the jnani “experience" the world after manonasa, very polarized, since traditional Vedanta mantains that is only a “knowledge” question and suppports the idea of “jivanmukta” (example, the blueness of the ocean that you keep seeing although you know water is transparent), and discarding that self-realization is “experiential” as they mantain speaking about the ajata contention (example snake on rope, you can’t see both, once you see the rope you can’t see the snake anymore).

Even in this blog, as in many other advaita blogs this goes on and on, and apparently will!

For me the solution is quite simple and matches Bhagavan’s (and Michael’s) point of view, logically.
Is there any moment that you “know that the ego is not present? The answer has to be yes and has to be deep sleep, since there is no ego there and by logic no world (and no problems!). So if deep sleep is the closest we come to “experience” a “state” without ego (actually Bhagavan says it’s atma-swarupa plein and simple), then what would a “state” (although wouldn’t be one because there would be no one to have it) with ego gone (or ajata) look or feel like? with cars and people and stars and big bangs, and devotees and sages?… doesn’t really hold, don’t you think so? Otherwise remember yourself in deep sleep last night...

But I do like and agree with what you say at the end of your last comment, that we all agree that we know who the culprit of all this mess is, even as imaginary as it seems to be, actually that position matches Bhagavan’s teachings, explained in verse 40 of Ulladu Narpadu:
"If it be said, according to one's mental propensities, that liberation is of three kinds, with form, without form, and both with and without form, I shall reply that the destruction of the form of the ego, which distinguishes between [liberation which is] with form, without form, and both with and without form, is liberation. Know thus.”

Be well,
M

Anonymous said...

Dear Venkat, I understand where you are coming from but I always keep in mind that Michael is a great bhakta and will not deviate in the slightest from the letter and spirit of the canonical Ramana texts. For example, (re: Michael's article)

Tuesday, 21 August 2007
The supreme compassion of Sri Ramana
--------------
One day while he was walking though a thicket his thigh accidentally brushed against a hornet’s nest, disturbing its numerous occupants, who immediately flew out in a rage and began to sting his offending thigh. Understanding their natural response, and feeling sorry for the disturbance that he had accidentally caused them, he stood quite still and, in spite of the intense pain that they were inflicting upon him, patiently allowed them to string his thigh until they were all fully satisfied and returned to their nest. In later years, when Sri Muruganar wrote a verse (which is now included in Guru Vachaka Kovai as verse 815) asking him why he felt repentant and allowed the hornets to sting his thigh even though the disturbance he caused them was not intentional, he replied by composing verse 7 of Upadesa Tanippakkal, in which he said:
Though the swarming hornets stung the leg so that it became inflamed and swollen when it touched and damaged their nest, which was spread [and concealed] in the midst of green leaves, and though it [the act of disrupting their nest] was a mistake that happened accidentally, if one did not at least feel sorry [pity for the hornets and repentant for the trouble caused to them], what indeed would be the nature of his mind [that is, how thoroughly hard-hearted and insensitive it would be]?
-----------
This attribution of feelings and agency to hornets is interpreted by Michael and others as compassion but I don't feel that way...one could cite many more instances but it would be blasphemy to say any more.

Like you, I also esteem Ramana Maharishi's casual conversations as highly as the canonical sources. I mentioned this incident because it appears in both places.

Best regards.

tanmaya-nishtha said...

*,
thanks for your yesterday comment relating to whom one should surrender.

nirvisesa said...

Because I come to hold Sadhu Natanananda(r)'s writings in high esteem:
He presumably lived for the most part in Tiruvannamalai - as one of the early devotees close with Sri Ramana.
However on the area of Sri Ramanasramam I did not see any gravestone/tombstone.
Perhaps he lived outside of Ramanasramam - like Sadhu Om.
Does anyone know something about his life (date of birth, death, place of grave/monument etc.) ?
I only found a little about his life in the preface of his Commentary of Sri Arunachala Stuti Panchakam (Five Hymns in Praise of Arunachala), translated by 'Kays'.(First Edition 2014).

* said...

Mouna - your assessment is incorrect. What deep sleep shows us is that 'I, Awareness' exist without the body and its five senses, hence, 'I, Awareness' am not this body.

When the illusion of separation (ego) arises as a case of mistaken identity, 'I, Awareness' becomes 'I, this body'. A false reality is then given to the body, and by extension, to the world. The real rope is perceived as the illusory snake.

Despite this misperception, however, only the rope (Awareness) remains real. To paraphrase: the body and the world (the snake) are unreal, only Awareness (the rope) is real, the body and the world (the snake) is only Awareness.

* said...

tanmaya-nishtha - thank you for sharing your experience.

Mouna said...

Asterix (*),
"Mouna - your assessment is incorrect"

Which part of my statement would be "incorrect"? and also would be interesting to know why. (note: when I write (in between quotes) of "state" or "experience" of deep sleep, those two words are figures of speech of course because deep sleep is not a state or experience that anyone has since there is complete emptiness/fullness "there", plus no one to experience it. Only ego by inference recognize it as an experience of absence.

One more thing, you say:
"To paraphrase: the body and the world (the snake) are unreal, only Awareness (the rope) is real, the body and the world (the snake) is only Awareness"
Once the illusion dissipates, there is no more body and the world to talk about, or put into other words, they never were Awareness because they were never there to start with. The phrase "the body and the world (the snake) is only Awareness is a teaching tool to demonstrate to the one who is projecting the snake his error, once the error dissapears, what world or body remains there to discuss about?

* said...

Mouna - you (and maybe some others) may think my comment was too cryptic. I don't think so.

Mouna said...

*,

No, *, I didn't think it too cryptic, I quite understand what you are talking about, and believe it or not, agree with, but I think it stays at one level only, doesn't go further, like drishti-shristi stays at one level only and doesn't necessarily jumps to ajata by itself.
Was more that I don't see the relation with what I wrote, and was curious to know where I went wrong according to your view of things.

Purification of mind does NOT reflect on one’s outward behavior, a purified mind is no mind and any perceived behavior is illusion said...

When I said that "*"'s comments are cryptic I didn't mean that they are hard to understand, no not at all. What I meant is that these comments, as much true as the mind may find them to be, are intrinsically unsatisfying and obscure.

I.e., * first comment on this thread when he posted as ".": "multiplicity is seen, yet known to be not two...and not one"

What purpose has that sentence? It may correctly describe that what Bhagavan and others directly experienced but then how does that help anybody here?

"yet known not be not two", is that *'s direct experience? I highly doubt that. So saying that seems rather coming from the head.

Later then * proclaimed it is very simple and I asked him to please elaborate. His cryptic or obscure answer, how can I elaborate about silence? That seems like an obfuscation for me and more a head game by * then actual true knowledge.

Finally when I asked him/her if his desires are silent too (pointing out indirectly his head game) he evaded my question with the answer "I'm pointing to the answer, not to more questions."

Huh? What's up with that? Sorry, I can see only much intellectual shell game and not much else. It seems that his mind is trying to not acknowledge that what it keeps coming up, his vasanas.

Anyway, just another guy who believes he can show up here and "teach" us his insides :-) I rather listen to Michael and Sanjay, and I also like venkat comments and quite a few others here. They seem all more down to Earth.

If anybody finds this comment too long, please don't read it anymore and skip to the next comment :-) Thank you.

atisaya sakti said...

Salazar,
I share your doubts and reservations about *'s woolly comments which lack clarity or meaningfulness.

atma-cintana said...

Michael James,
regarding your yesterday's reply to "Tanmaya nishtha",
"...meditation on oneself or self-attentiveness, which is the practice of self-investigation (ātma-vicāra), so what Bhagavan teaches us in this sentence is that we can surrender ourself only by investigating ourself, because we can give up the ego only by being aware of ourself as we actually are."

1. Surrender(ing) ourself is possible only by investigating ourself.
2. We may assume that we inversely can investigate (sufficiently) ourself only by surrendering ourself (completely).
3. How can we be aware of ourself as we actually are ?
4. Probably only by giving up the ego (entirely).
5. How can we give up the ego ? Only by being aware of ourself as we actually are.

Do we not thereby turn round in a circle ?

Michael James said...

Nirvisesa, regarding your questions about Swami Natananandar, I do not remember exactly when he left his body, but I remember the day very well, because Sadhu Om and I had been talking with him the previous day, and that morning Dorabji’s watchman/gardener came to tell us that he had just found him sitting in the same position but without life, so we informed the ashram and sent a telegram to Dorab, who lived in Chennai, and then we arranged for his burial in the garden behind Dorab’s house. It was just a few years before Sadhu Om left his body, so I think it was probably in 1982 or perhaps 1983. If you check the issues of The Mountain Path from that period you should find an obituary or some articles about him, which may give you the date he left his body.

I think he was born sometime in the 1890s, and before coming to Bhagavan he was a teacher. He came to Bhagavan in about 1918, when he was living in Skandasramam, and after that he lived most of his life in Tiruvannamalai. In his later life he lived for many years in a rented room in a suburb of Tiruvannamalai far from the ashram, and except Muruganar and Sadhu Om not many people knew where he was, but in the late 60s or early 70s he was having some difficulty living there, so Sadhu Om suggested to Dorabji (son of Framji, a Parsi devotee of Bhagavan who owned a cinema in Chennai) that he should invite him to live in an unused cottage in his compound, so Dorab had it tidied up and invited him to live there. Therefore that is where he lived the final years of his life, but he was reclusive by nature, so not many people knew he lived there.

Dorab’s compound is the fourth one behind the Morvi guesthouse compound, immediately after the Osborne compound, and Natananandar’s samādhi (tomb) is at the back of it behind Dorab’s house. I do not know how easily it is accessible now, but true to the spirit in which Natananandar lived it is (or was) a very simple samādhi with little to mark it.

nirvisesa said...

Michael,
many thanks for giving your report on Sadhu(Swami) Natananda(r). Funnily four weeks ago I had a short look at some Osborne's gravestones on the Osborne compound when I (while walking in direction Morvi guesthouse compound) just passed the gateway of the Osborne compound and one person standing at the entrance door invited me to come in. (Short time before on that day I was visiting Sadhu Om's compound and his rooms on the first floor. Coming the way from there I turned left into the "Osborne street"). So I passed also Dorab's compound on the right side of the "Osborne street".
As you suggest I will also check the mentioned issues of the Mountain Path.
Thanks.

. . said...

atma-cintana, you said "Do we not thereby turn round in a circle ?"

Bhagavan was asked the same question by a devotee who was exasperated by a seemingly catch-22. I am not sure where I've read it, if I should come across it I'll post it so you can see what Bhagavan answered to that devotee. If my memory is correct that answer may as less satisfy your mind as it was the case with that devotee.

There is only one satisfying answer and direction, and that is to turn within and leave the thought activity of the mind alone.

Sanjay Lohia said...

Recently, a murder has taken place in my neighbourhood. The police have not been able to find the actual murderer, but in order to show that they are efficient they have picked up a random person – Smith and charged him with murder. They produce him in court. Now the onus is on the prosecution to prove that Smith is the murderer, because the law says ‘innocent until proved guilty’.

This is an imaginary story, but it is to illustrate a point: We are not sure whether this world is real or an illusion, because we can argue the case both ways. We do not know whether or not this world exists while we do not perceive it. So we cannot say anything on this matter. This world could be real or unreal – that is our stand. However, if someone claims that this world, they have to prove their case, like in our above example, the prosecution has to prove that Smith is the murderer.

Firstly, if the world is real, why doesn’t it appear in our sleep? If anything is real, we should always experience it: that is, we should experience it all our three states, waking, dream and sleep. However, since we do not experience it in our sleep, how can anyone prove to us that it existed even while we were asleep.

Secondly, is this so-called ‘waking world’ any different from our dream world? We do not find any difference? While we are dreaming, we project a body and take it to be ourself, and through the senses of that body, we project a world which seems to be outside of us. Exactly the same may be happening in our present waking state. So if anyone says that this world is not a dream, they have to prove how it is different from our dream.

Thirdly, if someone says that this world is real and exists even when we do not experience it, in order to argue their case, they have to assume their conclusion as a premise of their argument. They may try to show us many differences between our waking and dream, but to do that they have to first assume that this world is real. That is, before proving their case they assume that their conclusion is true. This is arguing in a circle or begging the question.

~ In my above reflections, I have tried to paraphrase Michael’s ideas which he has been telling us in his videos and at other places.

Sanjay Lohia said...

The last sentence of my second paragraph should read as:

However, if someone claims that this world is real, they have to prove their case, like in our above example, the prosecution has to prove that Smith is the murderer.

Sanjay Lohia said...

Bhagavan says that this world is nothing but a dream, is nothing but our imagination. By saying this does Bhagavan expect us to act in this world as if it is unreal?

Not really, because as long as we take ourself (this person) to be real, all the other persons are equally real. That is, I cannot say ‘Sanjay is real’, but everyone else is unreal. Therefore, if Sanjay is real, all the other persons who I see outside of me are equally real, and therefore I should interact with them accordingly. If Sanjay is real, Michael, Mouna, Salazar and everyone else is also real.

However, when we reflect on Bhagavan’s teachings and when we try to turn within, we have to take this world to be unreal. It is because as long as we consider this world to be real, we will not be sufficiently motivated to turn within, away from everything else. So for the purposes of our sadhana this world should be considered unreal, but as long as we are operating outside, we should act as if this world is real.

However, is Sanjay real? If I investigate my ego and discover that it does not exist, I will also discover Sanjay was unreal, and therefore everything else (all the phenomena) that Sanjay experienced was unreal. Once our connection with our body is severed, we will no longer have to worry as to how to live in this world, because, thenceforth, the world will simply cease to exist.

~ Paraphrase of Michael’s ideas

atma-cintana said...

Salazar,
of course you are right, regarding such a question it would be better if one ignores or leaves aside the mind's thought producing activity.
What is a "seemingly catch-22" ?

nirvisesa said...

Michael,
now I found two short articles about Sadhu Natanananda and his passing away in Ramana Nagar in The Mountain Path 1981, Nr. IV, page 234 -236. The second article is written by V.Ganesan(the then Managing Editor).
Thanks again.

Sanjay Lohia said...

When we are practising self-investigation, it appears this practice is a never-ending process, but this seemingly never-ending process will certainly come to an end one day, because all processes have to end sooner or later. However, when this process of self-investigating ends, will come to know that, paradoxically, there was never any process in the first place – that is, we were never practising self-investigation at any time in the past.

How can we explain this? What we now experience as this ego is just a false appearance, and this false appearance appears only in its own view. All our spiritual efforts are made by this false appearance called ‘the ego’, and if this false appearance never existed in the first place, there was also never any spiritual effort ever undertaken by us. Thus all our present spiritual efforts are as illusory as our illusory ego, and when the ego is found to be non-existent, we will also find that all our spiritual efforts were nothing but our own imagination: that is, they never took place.

This is called the doctrine of ajata. Bhagavan has explained this in GVK (B28) and also in Upadesa Tanippakkal (verse 24):

There is no coming into existence [occurring, happening or becoming], destruction, bondage, desire to untie [bondage], effort [made for liberation], [or] those who have attained [liberation]. Know that this is paramartha [the ultimate truth].

As Michael explained in one of his articles, ajata-vada is the logical conclusion of vivarta-vada (the contention that everything is a false appearance, including the ego who witnesses this false appearance). If by self-investigation our ego is destroyed, the entire edifice of false appearances will collapse, never to reappear. Therefore, our final experience will only be ajata.

Purification of mind does NOT reflect on one’s outward behavior, a purified mind is no mind and any perceived behavior is illusion said...

atma-cintana, catch-22 is a phrase used in the USA, and I believe elsewhere, to describe a paradox of some sorts. It is also the title of a novel by the American author Joseph Heller who wrote it in the 1950s, it is widely regarded as an important piece of literature.

I goggled it for you to dig up some more facts and I found one more description for the phrase "catch-22": The term "Catch-22" is also used more broadly to mean a tricky problem or a no-win or absurd situation

atma-cintana said...

Salazar,
thank you for providing your additional information. Evidently the linguistic usage in the USA and Europe is different. Sorry about the gap in my education/knowledge of the English language.

Sanjay Lohia said...

Bhagavan says in verse 29 of Upadesa Undiyar:

Abiding in this state [of infinite and indivisible sat-cit-ānanda], thereby experiencing supreme bliss devoid of [the duality of] bondage or liberation, is abiding in the service of God.

Bhagavan says that the state we are looking for is not even liberation but beyond bondage and liberation.

Why is abiding in the state of infinite and indivisible sat-chit-ananda abiding in the service of God? It is because by rising as this ego, we are unnecessarily creating trouble for God. When we rise as this ego, God has to incarnate as our Guru (in our case Bhagavan), give us all these teachings, and thereby do all the hard work to get us to turn within.

So, basically, by running out to play in the world, we are making it necessary for Bhagavan to come after us to save us from all our foolishness. God doesn’t need any service from us. If we avoid giving him trouble, that itself is the greatest service to him. This is the implication of this verse.

~*~ Edited extract from Michael’s video dated 23/04/2017 (afternoon)

My note: When we visit temples, most of us basically try to do service to God by offering him this or that. We give him (the idol) food, clothing, a nice bath and so on, and by this, we feel that we have served God. However, is this real service to God? It cannot be, because he actually doesn’t this sort of service. As Bhagavan says, if we abide in ourself, that is the greatest service to him.

However, is our idol worship totally wrong? Not really, because as long as we take ourself to be a form, we cannot avoid conceiving God also as some form, and therefore if our worship is done with love, this will purify our mind. Such worship will make us fit to progress in our sadhana. So we should not look down upon the pujas etc. in the temples. Even if we feel we do not need such pujas, others will be benefitted by it, and it could enable them to climb up in their spiritual ladder.

(I will continue this in my next comment)

Sanjay Lohia said...

In continuation of my previous comment:

Moreover, even if we are practising self-investigation, there is no harm in participating in any sort of temple worship, especially if we are worshipping our sadguru. We cannot be practising self-investigation all the time, and therefore whenever our attention is turned outwards, there is no harm in showing our love and gratitude to the idol or photograph of Bhagavan.

Such pujas may not be necessary for us, because our practice of self-investigation is complete in itself, and therefore it does not require the support of other practices. However, if we happen to be in a Ramana mandir (temple), we can channel our love for Bhagavan by praying to him. However, such prayers should not be for any material things, but should only be for his help in our sadhana - that is, we can pray to him to give us more and more love for him and so on. Such prayers will purify our mind: that is, these sorts of prayers will make our egos week by weakening our vishaya-vasanas.

However, we should remember that the true service of Bhagavan is to remain in atma-nishtha, by not giving even the slightest room for the rising of any thought. We can avoid every other sort of worship. As Bhagavan says in verse 8 of Upadesa Undiyar:

Rather than anya-bhāva, ananya-bhāva, in which he is I, certainly is the best among all.

Therefore, self-investigation is the best of all, as far as any spiritual practice is concerned, and therefore if we are doing the best practice, we do not really need to practise anything else. Moreover, Bhagavan says in paragraph 11 of Nan Yar?:

If one clings fast to uninterrupted svarūpa-smaraṇa[self-remembrance] until one attains svarūpa [one’s own actual self], that alone [will be] sufficient.

. . said...

Hello Sanjay, thank you for you always helpful comments. I can’t help but noticing that you often use the phrase “we cannot be practicing self-investigation all the time” and often I just agree with that statement since at least I am not (yet) practicing self-investigation all the time.

However, is that not just also a thought and with that an acquired false belief that this is the case? In other words, if we continue to believe that we cannot practice self-investigation all the time we certainly won’t. Therefore that belief/thought has to be dropped and I at least won’t entertain it anymore or at least be aware of its limiting effect.

Sanjay Lohia said...

Salazar, whatever phenomena we experience is just a thought or a mental idea, so, as you rightly say, the idea that ‘we cannot be practising self-investigation all the time’ is also merely our thought, if at all we have this thought. So definitely we should try and prevent such thoughts from rising, as we should prevent all our other thoughts from rising. Bhagavan used to often say, 'To think is not your nature'. However, as long as we rise as this ego, we cannot but think thoughts. What I wrote in my previous comment was:

Moreover, even if we are practising self-investigation, there is no harm in participating in any sort of temple worship, especially if we are worshipping our sadguru. We cannot be practising self-investigation all the time, and therefore whenever our attention is turned outwards, there is no harm in showing our love and gratitude to the idol or photograph of Bhagavan.

By keeping our minds focused on his name and form for certain periods, we are at least preventing our minds from thinking of other worldly things. If we are able to keep our minds always indrawn, nothing like it, but let us face it, this is not possible all the time.

Hence, whenever we are facing outside, the best thing we can do is to read and reflect on Bhagavan’s teachings or if we are of a devotional bent of mind, we can also to listen to devotional songs or pray to Bhagavan. Has he shown us the usefulness of such prayers by his heart-melting prayers to Arunachala?

All these practices can support our practice of self-investigation, if these are done with love for Bhagavan. Of course, such aids or practices are not a substitute for self-investigation.

. . said...

Sanjay, yes - I got your point and for sure there is no harm to participate in any (sincere) worship of idols. Or to chant any scriptures or those other many aids.

Getting through some difficulties, all that is tremendously helping, also to forget one's problems and be more empathetic of the well being of those one happens to encounter throughout the day.

Sanjay Lohia said...

The more we investigate ourself, the greater and greater clarity of self-awareness we get, and thereby slowly-slowly we will dissolve the strength of our ego – the chit-jada-granthi, this dehatma-bhava. As this knot gets weaker and weaker, our love just to be starts to increase, and eventually that love to know what we actually are will become all-consuming and will consume all our other desires.

So when we are trying to be self-attentive, we are trying to separate ‘I am’ from ‘Gurudas’ or ‘Michael’. In Maharshi’s Gospel, Bhagavan says that in our self-investigation, we need to investigate the essential chit aspect of our ego – what is this ‘I’ that feels ‘I am Gurudas?’

However, though we are trying to attend to the essential chit aspect of our ego, but because the chit and the jada are mixed together in such an entanglement, our power of attention needs to be refined, in order to be able to separate the drg (the seer) from the drsya (the seen). Our body is also included in the 'seen'.

So atma-vichara is a process of drg-draysa-viveka - distinguishing the ‘seer’ from the ‘seen’, the awareness from all phenomena with which it is mixed. So we need to go deeper and deeper within ourself, or our power of attention needs to be focused more and more keenly on ourself.

Because our minds are always attending to gross things, our power of attention has become gross or it has become relatively a blunt instrument. So when we try and distinguish the awareness from the adjuncts with which it is now mixed, we are not able to do so perfectly at first. It is like trying to separate the fine threads of a silk cloth with a crowbar. We need to sharpen the crowbar to separate the threads.

Likewise, we need to sharpen our power of attention, make it very-very keen. With a keen intellect, we have to know the place from which the ego rises. So it is a process of refining our power of attention, of making it keener and subtler. It is the process of purifying our minds, but that is all the preparation. In the end, however, the destruction of the ego will happen in less than a split second.

~*~ Edited extract from Michael’s video dated April 23, 2017



ekagrata said...

Sanjay Lohia,
thanks for your extract again.
Nevertheless we should correctly read: "So atma-vichara is a process of drg-drsya-viveka ..." instead of drg-draysa-viveka.

atma-cintana said...

Sanjay Lohia, Michael,
what do we gain when we know the place from where the ego rises ?
Would it then after discovering its birthplace choose to end its apparent rising and setting ?

Sanjay Lohia said...

Ekagrata, yes, it should have been: 'So atma-vichara is a process of drg-drsya-viveka ...' I thank you for bringing this to my notice.

Sanjay Lohia said...

Atma-Cintana, if we experience the place or source from where the ego arises with absolute clarity, that will be the end of our ego. So if we experience that place or source, we will gain our true self, metaphorically speaking. Our true self, however, was never lost in the first place. It seemed to be lost because we were not paying attention to it or were ignoring it – this is called avichara or pramada. Bhagavan teaches us in verse 27 of Ulladu Narpadu:

The state in which one exists without ‘I’ rising is the state in which we exist as that. Without investigating the place where ‘I’ rises, how to reach the annihilation of oneself, in which ‘I’ does not rise? Without reaching, say, how to stand in the state of oneself, in which oneself is that?

Hence, we cannot experience our true state in which this ‘I’ does not arise, without investing the source from which it arises. In other words, we need to dive deeper and deeper into ourself in order to experience pure self, like we need to dig deeper and deeper in order to get the pure spring of water. Bhagavan elaborates on this further in verse 28 of Ulladu Narpadu:

Like sinking wanting to see something that has fallen in water, sinking within restraining speech and breath by a sharpened mind it is necessary to know the place where the rising ego rises. Know.

Bhagavan makes it again clear that without sinking deep within ourself with a sharpened mind, we cannot know our source as it is. At any given time, we can experience ourself as this ego or experience ourself as we actually are, we cannot experience both of these simultaneously.

When we experience ourself as we actually are, we will no longer experience ourself as his ego, and as Bhagavan has repeatedly emphasised, the only way to see ourself as we actually are is to look at ourself keenly enough. As the only way to see the reality of the snake, that it is a rope, is to look at that snake keenly enough.

Sanjay Lohia said...

Devotee: I find that many people find purpose in not just accumulating wealth; they find inspiration in helping others. I don’t think that that is all useless or invalid.

Michael: All this is a matter of perspective. Value is entirely a subjective thing. What value does gold have? Gold has value that we give to it. Because we consider gold to be precious, we give it value. Things in life seem to have because we give it value.

We don’t like pain, so we value the state that is free of pain - it is only because of our likes and dislikes. If we didn’t have any dislike for pain, we wouldn’t value being free of pain. So value is entirely created by our mind. There is no objective value in the world. It is the mind which decides: ‘I like this; I don’t like that’. So value is entirely a subjective thing.

So, therefore, we have to decide what we should value? What do we consider to be the purpose of our life? Some people find purpose in doing social service, some in science, some in accumulating wealth and so forth. They are free to do so, but we have to ask ourself: ‘Do we want what is real or not’? If we want what is real, we have to question everything.

Hence, we shouldn’t take anything for granted. We all take this body to be ‘I’, but if we analyse our experience we can see that we cannot actually be this body. Because if we were this body, whenever we are aware of ourself we must be aware of this body. In a dream, however, we are aware of some other body, so no body can be ourself. In waking and dream we are aware of ourself as the mind, but in sleep, we are not aware of any mind, even though in sleep there is an ‘I’ to have slept.

So when we analyse our experience of ourself, it is clear that we now seem to something which we are not. We are clearly not aware of ourself as we actually are. When we do not know what we actually are, what value our knowledge of other things have? How can we be sure about anything else? So we have to question everything. Since I cannot be sure about my knowledge of anything else, unless I am sure about my knowledge of myself, obviously, logically, the first thing I need to do is to investigate and find out what I myself am.

# Edited extract from Michael’s video dated April 23, 2017 (afternoon)


atma-cintana said...

Sanjay Lohia,
thanks for replying.
The main point of my second question was if mere knowing the (place of the) source of the rising ego by looking keenly for it and diving deep as much as possible imparts the knowledge of our true state and the experience of ourself as we actually are.
Mentally we already know that this place is called "the heart" of our being.

Sanjay Lohia said...

K@r@n, our existence is clear because we are aware of our existence, or conversely, we are always aware of our existence. According to Bhagavan’s teachings, one entails the other: ulladu (what actually is) is unarvu (what is actually aware). Bhagavan explains this in the first mangalam verse of Ulladu Narpadu:

If what exists were not, would existing awareness exist? Since the existing substance exists in the heart without thought, how to think of the existing substance, which is called ‘heart’? Being in the heart as it is alone is thinking. Know.

So, contrary to what to imply, ‘Am I aware?’ need not be asked by us, because we clearly know that we exist and we are aware. In fact, Bhagavan made this clear in the first teaching he gave to Sivaprakasam Pillai. The very question he asked was: ‘Who am I?’ Bhagavan replied: ‘aṟivu [knowledge, awareness or consciousness] that stands isolated alone is ‘I’. The nature of [this] knowledge [‘I am’] is sat-cit-ānanda [being-consciousness-bliss]. Awareness, therefore, is our very nature, and we can never be divorced from this awareness.

So the correct question we should ask ourself is not ‘Am I aware?’, but ‘Who am I that is aware’. We need to investigate this ‘I’ and find what exactly this ‘I’ is. We know that ‘I am’, but do know what ‘I am’.

ekagrata said...

Sanjay Lohia,
of course you wanted to say "We know that ‘I am’, but do not know what ‘I am’."

atisaya sakti said...

Sanjay Lohia,
you quote "What do we consider to be the purpose of our life? Some people find purpose in doing social service, some in science, some in accumulating wealth and so forth...".

Doing social service in the right selfless attitude is certainly no wrong way of life because we can thereby leave behind our ego. Is that not the purpose of one's life ?

* said...

For those who don't know what 'I' is:

The world does not exist apart from the body; the body does not exist apart from the mind; the mind does not exist apart from Consciousness; and Consciousness does not exist apart from Self, which is Existence. - GVK v. 99

This is not talking about some future time when the mind, body, and world are destroyed. There is no time in the Self. The Self is Now.

Have you ever wondered if Ramana's teaching of 'Real and unreal' is a diluted teaching? This is, after all, about the Non-Dual, is it not?

Nothing speaks the Truth like Silence.

Sanjay Lohia said...

ekagrata, yes, it should have been: 'We know that ‘I am’, but do not know what ‘I am’. I thank you for pointing this out to me.

Sanjay Lohia said...

Atisaya Sakti, Bhagavan says in verse 10 of Upadesa Undiyar:

Subsiding and being in the place from which one rose: that is karma and bhakti; that is yoga and jñāna.

In one of his articles, Michael elaborated on this as follows:

Subsiding and being in our thought-transcending sat-bhāva or true state of being, which is the source from which we rose as this ego, our primal thought called ‘I’, which is the root of all other thoughts, is not only parabhakti (supreme devotion) but also the culmination and ultimate goal of all the other three mārgas or spiritual paths, namely karma mārga (the path of niṣkāmya karma discussed in verses 3 to 7 of Upadesa Undiyar), yōga mārga (the path of yoga discussed in verses 11 to 14) and jñāna mārga (the path of knowledge discussed in verses 15 to 30).

You ask, ‘Doing social service in the right selfless attitude is certainly no wrong way of life because we can thereby leave behind our ego. Is that not the purpose of one's life?’ Yes, doing social service with a right attitude can be beneficial. However, we can never destroy our ego by doing any sort of social service, since as long as we are attending to such social service, our ego will remain intact. Who does social service? 'I’ do it, so this ‘I’ can never be destroyed as long as we are facing outwards.

Once someone had the following conversation with Bhagavan (as recorded and as I recall it):

Devotee: I want to serve the world as I find so much injustice and other problems in this world? Do you approve of my plan?

Bhagavan: It would be enough if you serve yourself by remaining quiet. This way you can serve the world a thousand times better than you would do by so-called ‘service to the world’.

Our first and foremost task therefore is to experience ourself as we actually are. If we are able to do so, afterwards we can serve the world if we want. However, according to Bhagavan, this world is our mental creation, so it will cease to exist if we are able to destroy our ego. Hence, no world will remain to need our services once we know who we actually are.


atisaya sakti said...

Sanjay Lohia,
a perfect karma yogi acts in the awareness of non-doership (state of being not the doer and thinking to be not the doer of actions). Therefore his ego is to be considered as destroyed.
"However, according to Bhagavan, this world is our mental creation, so it will cease to exist if we are able to destroy our ego. Hence, no world will remain to need our services once we know who we actually are."
This is possibly true, but only from the viewpoint of our ego. Is it not our daily experience that the so-called world does not change although there were even mahatmas who did certainly know their real nature (for instance Buddha, Jesus Christ, Shankaracharya, Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi...).
The wisdom of Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi did not prevent the Second World War albeit he said that it was only a mental i.e. unreal creation. Evidently a so-called mental creation has to be experienced merely by all ignorant non-sages as most of us seem to be. From the viewpoint of a sage it may of course be correct that all our experiences are only mental i.e. unreal imaginations. But it is not presumptuous when we ajnanis try to see the world through the clear spectacles of jnana ?

atisaya sakti said...

Sanjay Lohia, please excuse my typo,
the last sentence should be read as "But is it not...."

Mouna said...

Just a quick observation on the word ego.
Just semantics that reveal a different kind of thinking at its source.

The word ego has a few different connotations in the english language and sometimes it is difficult to unravel the meaning some of us give it in our commentaries. But one feature I noticed keeps recurring is that we, or let’s say “i”, Mouna refer to ego as my ego (and sometimes our ego, his/her ego), as if ego was a property of the person, something I carried inside the body/mind and will “reincarnate" once the BM dies.
Maybe that is one of the reasons that we still think that manonasa or self-realization, when it ocurrs, signifies that everything continues as it is but without… ego!
It would be an interesting experiment if we substitute the word ego by the word maya, which are synonymous according to Bhagavan’s teachings. Clearly, saying, I need to dissolve my maya doesn’t much any sense because we know that maya is something that includes us and everything conceivable by us.
So in general, what we refer as ego in those situations (like “my ego”) is the person, which is a projection of ego.

I understand, there are levels of conversation, like when we refer to Bhagavan (or Jnanis) as separate from “us”, revealing that we are starting on the wrong foot because we take ourselves as a body in the first place, but is understandable because there are different levels of undersanding and we can’t communicate properly if we do not understand those levels.

atisaya sakti said...

Mouna, greetings,
you are right, mostly we use the term 'ego' for the 'person' which is considered as "our" body-mind-complex. As long as we experience us as that body-mind-complex we see all from the ego's viewpoint. Therefore I think that this habit does not any harm to us ajnanis. However, of course we all want to cast off the yoke of bondage and be finally dissolved in pure jnana.

Sanjay Lohia said...

Bhagavan used to say, ‘No one succeeds in the path without perseverance. Those who succeed owe their success to their perseverance’. We have all tried to turn our attention within but have failed so many times.

It is like a small child trying to walk. A small child gets up to walk and falls down, if it gives up it will never learn to walk. But it is not the nature of the child to give up. Have you ever seen a child who has failed to learn to walk? Their very nature as a child is that it must learn to walk.

So we should be driven by the same urge - the same urge that is driving a child to learn to walk, and we will succeed.

Edited extract from the video dated 23/04/2016

My note: We are like a child trying to walk, and our mother is in front of us encouraging us to keep trying. This mother is Bhagavan. Once we are able to walk well we will reach our mother, and she will pick us up, and there will be joy all around - the joy of union between the mother and child.

So if not for our sake, at least for the sake our mother we should try to learn to walk. Bhagavan, who is more kind and caring than our own mother, is waiting for us with his arms open!


atma-cintana said...

Sanjay Lohia,
you say "Bhagavan, who is more kind and caring than our own mother, is waiting for us with his arms open!". How do you kinow this ?

atma-cintana said...

Sanjay Lohia, sorry error, it should habe been:
How do you know this ?

atma-cintana said...

sorry again about a typo: it should have been...

Sanjay Lohia said...

Atma-Cintana, Bhagavan sings in verse 101 Sri Arunachala Aksharamanamalai:

Arunachala, like ice in water, lovingly melt me as love in you, the form of love.

Bhagavan declares that Arunachala is the form of love or the very embodiment of love, and since Arunachala is Bhagavan and Bhagavan is Arunachala, we should have no doubt that Bhagavan is love itself. Do you not love Bhagavan? You would not love him if he was not kind and loving to you, so that is another proof that Bhagavan is love.

How do I know that Bhagavan is waiting for us with his arms open? It is a metaphor. If a boy and a girl are madly in love with each other and are looking forward to their marriage, will they not directly know in their hearts that each of them is waiting for the other with his or her arms open? This love cannot be described but can clearly be experienced within each of us.

What is grace? As Michael often tells us, grace is nothing but the love that our real self has for our real self. Bhagavan and grace are synonyms, so Bhagavan is love. When we practise self-investigation, what pulls us from within if not this pure love? Bhagavan’s love for us is constant and eternal, but our love for him is partial and broken, because though we love Bhagavan, but we also love ourself and many other things of this world. So our love is divided between Bhagavan and those other things, and therefore we are not able to experience the full power Bhagavan's love.

Our prarabdha is another demonstration of Bhagavan’s love for us? Bhagavan has written our destiny is such a way that it helps our return to our source, which is Bhagavan. So definitely he is waiting for us with open arms. Why doubt his love? If we do so, it is like saying that there is no sun in the sky. Like the sunlight can only come from the sun, whatever love we receive in whatever form is only coming from Bhagavan.





* said...

Q: How can I know myself as I actually am?

A: There are not two selves. Therefore, the self can only be as it is. Therefore,
the self can only be as I am. Now.

atma-cintana said...

Sanjay Lohia,
to sum up what you say one can say: all is love. There is nothing but Bhagavan's love.
It is true though that we love wordly things more than Bhagavan. That divided love which is only with reservations hampers us in our ability "to experience the full power of Bhagavan's love."
Regrettably my love to Bhagavan is also not all-embracing although it is said that he or it is dwelling permanently in us -in the heart. That state of feeling far away from Bhagavan's love is awful and terrible. Therefore I must try again to dive deep in me - with inexhaustible, imperturbable and unshakeable patience.

Purification of mind does NOT reflect on one’s outward behavior, a purified mind is no mind and any perceived behavior is illusion said...

Mouna, as long as the ego rises in the morning as long we see other persons including Jnanis. So we can't help it but to take us as this body. A "deeper" level of understanding won't change that.

As you know, that what has true understanding doesn't need nor gains "deeper" levels and that what thinks it needs deeper levels or more refinement does not exist.

Here comes Bhagavan greatness when he concludes to all of this mental chattering: Therefore be still!

Mouna said...

Salazar, to my eyes, you are mixing levels of conversation here. My point was that many of us think and feel that we (Salazar, Mouna, etc…) have an ego… Mouna says, “my ego, etc…” and that prevents the understanding that ego has “a Mouna”. Is a complete reversal of facts based on the ignorance of eka-jiva vada, or the existence of only one jiva or ego. There are not many “egos” out there, there is only one, also called samsara, maya, I-Thought, etc. Persons are many, one ego (eka jiva).

And of course Brahman doesn’t need any understanding, neither has "true understanding”, understanding (or not understanding) belongs to the person (Mouna, Salazar).
The "mental chattering” that we all do here is part of the process of manana and, in some way, of nididhyasana, and also belongs to “persons”(and by logic, to ego, which is the "locus" of all persons). If it not were for those understandings we will not be writing in this forum and sharing thoughts, which actually thin the apparent ego, which in the end can only be destroyed by vichara and grace. (please don’t tell me that ego can’t be destroyed because non-existent..)

"Therefore be still!”
Clue: (although difficult, granted) you can also be still while talking, running a business, even thinking… silence is not necessarily absence of sound and stillness is not necessarily absence of movement (another misunderstanding that goes around quite frequently…)

kurnda matiyal said...

Yes, Bhagavan always recommends to be still.
On the other hand, are we able to be still ?
As long we experience ourself as the 'I'-thought along with its adjuncts
we cannot understand neither eka-jiva vada nor can we apply ajata-vada in our practice.
Because we now experience duality we should not try to discuss here the ultimate truth which experiences only an atma-jnani.

Mouna said...

kurnda matiyal,

Some comments on your recent comments.

"As long we experience ourself as the 'I'-thought along with its adjuncts we cannot understand neither eka-jiva vada...”
I believe we can, starting by the intellectual notion. If you refer to your present experience in the waking state, it is very easy to relate to the notion of eka-jiva, since you can only refer to one limitless existence/awareness, not many. Everything you perceive, sense feel and think refers, and is permeated by, to only one existence/awareness.

”...nor can we apply ajata-vada in our practice.”
I also think we can. Think and feel about deep sleep, there you have it the ajata point of view. Bring it to the present moment.

”Because we now experience duality we should not try to discuss here the ultimate truth which experiences only an atma-jnani.”
We discuss (as persons) the teachings (an ultimate truth) taught by “janis” to understand our condition (illusory ego), it is called manana or clearing doubts about what was heard or read, and help us turn our attention inwards (nididhyasana).

Purification of mind does NOT reflect on one’s outward behavior, a purified mind is no mind and any perceived behavior is illusion said...

Mouna, I get your point. And yes, stillness is not necessarily an absence of movement, that depends if the actions or movements of the body are considered as "my" movement. As long as we identify with the actions of the body we cannot be really still in the sense of summa iru.

And yes, the ego cannot be destroyed, we just have to stop believing the thought that we are the body/mind. The idea of the need of destruction is actually re-enforcing the ego. Thus Bhagavan's Self-Inquiry which bypasses all ideas of destruction of the ego into looking if there is one there in the first place. And according to him, there is none. If we have not realized that yet is of course due to our interest in other things than Self.

Frankly, I find the "process of manana" quite overrated since it is beneficial only in the very beginning and is soon becoming more an obstacle than a benefit. And I may deviate here with others on this blog who give manana a bigger value. I also do not concur with Michael (with all due respect) that we need to ever refine our (conceptual) understanding. That may come on its own by simply doing atma-vichara. And that culminates into Jnana.

If we are in question if we should use the mind or not we can always answer that in favor of not using the mind, not at all if possible. Life will go on without the mind's compulsion to chatter about this and that. If we believe that is not possible we just confirm with that our lack in faith to Bhagavan and our insistence to carry the heavy bag rather to give it to Bhagavan.

A devotee complained to Bhagavan that he cannot read and understand the scriptures and Bhagavan replied that being illiterate is no obstacle in knowing Self, in fact it saves the Jiva from getting entangled into empty conceptual knowledge and understanding which is, without extensive practice, worthless. Bhagavan: There is no need for scriptures in order to know the Self.

I also heartily concur that we should not discuss the ultimate truth, that just fattens the ego because it shows how clever it is and yet it is just deluding itself as usual.

There is the tendency (and I do not exclude myself) to jump between the viewpoint of the ultimate truth and the viewpoint of the risen ego with its entanglement of this phenomenal world. However, I am not sure if that can be avoided due to the paradoxical nature of the subject at hand.

Anyway, I guess this comment is another "chatty" contribution for this blog.

All is well my friend :-)

Hope your situation has approved, my blessings.

Purification of mind does NOT reflect on one’s outward behavior, a purified mind is no mind and any perceived behavior is illusion said...

Oh, I meant at the end, I hope your situation has IMPROVED and not approved.

Mouna said...

Salazar, my friend, need to go to work.
I'll address your comment later on, but for now I wanted to tell you that your last paragraph hoping that my situation will improve (it didn't yet) touched my heart for the concern. I wish yours too... We are definitely not only dry brain grey matter in this blog. thx.

_/\_

(to be continued...)

kurnda matiyal said...

Mouna, greetings to CA,
some comments on your reply:

1. would you agree if the mentioned sentence would read "as long as we seem to be this ego we cannot understand eka-jiva vada" ?
Limited consciousness is just a false appearance and does not "refer to one limitless existence/awareness".

2. in deep sleep there is no one present having any view.
Ajata-vada, i.e. the experience that the ego and world never seemed to exist at all,
is only the experience of a true atma-jnani. What is unborn (ajata) is only pure self-awareness, which is said to be the alone existing infinite whole. That any illusion has come into existence at all is just only the ego's point of view.

3. you are right, manana is necessary. However, that there is actually no such thing as this ego, can be discovered only by keen investigation of ourself - as the ego. Without doubt and as you know, discussing the ultimate truth alone cannot impart that experience.

kurnda matiyal said...

Mouna,
I too express the hope that your "situation" will improve soon.

Mouna said...

Thank you also kurnda matiyal.
I do appreciate your kind words.
M

Mouna said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mouna said...

(There was a big typo in my previous posting)
Kurnda matiyal, greetings

You said: ”would you agree if the mentioned sentence would read "as long as we seem to be this ego we cannot understand eka-jiva vada"?”
I am not sure if I agree Kurnda. To experience ajata is one thing, to understand it is another. As I said before, we can have a taste of it if we refer to deep sleep. The only problem with that is that ego rises again because it wasn’t destroyed (although we know it is an illusion). Example: you come to me and ask me to help you kill the snake you saw in my shed where I keep the tools. I try to convince you with all my might that there is no snake there, and you understand perfectly what I’m saying but you will need to do the experience of actually seeing the rope to completely believe me. At that point the illusion dissipates and you cannot see a snake there any longer. The guru plays the role of the one telling us that the snake is actually a rope.

I agree completely with your point #2, but partially with #3. Although discussing about the truth won’t give us moksha, is a necessary step for the correct understanding of how to perform nididhyasana.

kurnda matiyal said...

Mouna,
because ajata naturally cannot be experienced by any person but only by a jnani we can at least try to mentally understand that radical advaita-principle.
Be well.
J

venkat said...

Hi Mouna and all

If we leave the Advaita philosophy aside for a moment. Doesn't a common sense / scientific understanding of the material world give us Advaita - non duality - anyway?

Are you and I not made up of the same chemicals, same atoms, the same quantum energy particles? The gold ornaments appear different but the underlying reality is gold, which is not different. Similarly are we not made of the same stuff?

And when I perceive another, the light energy / electrons that are reflected from the other's ("material") molecular energy / electrons, and captured in my (material, composed of molecular energy) retina, which sends electrical impulses through our nerves (molecular energy themselves) to the brain, which constructs a ("non-material") image of the other.

And our situation in the world, and how we behave in the world, has very little to do with 'us' or 'our' design / volition, and very much to do with the ' accident' of our births and the consequential programming / conditioning of the mind patterns - which country, which family, how much wealth, we were born to and what type of societal environment we grew up in.

But fundamentally we are the same - a bundle of energy over here and over there, floating in a space that is made up of energy, perceiving (seeing / hearing / touching) each other as a result of a flow of energy. Science, followed to its logical conclusion, tells us we are non dual; that separation is an illusion, not true. And if you replace the word energy with consciousness you have Advaita.

In this schema, ajata vada simply says that there is no separation; that there is no individual; there is no creation / dissolution - there is just energy / consciousness, which seems to organise itself into patterns that then seem to perceive each other. But this is all just literally a play of consciousness / energy.

Our Maya is to believe that we are separate individuals, that we have achieved/earned whatever fame/money/power that we have, and that we should continue to strive to achieve some other goal (usually a goal arising from our societal conditioning). This I think is why Advaita emphasises that you are not the doer - 'you' have not done anything to deserve where you find yourself. We don't have the humility to appreciate that everything we have has nothing to do with us; it is just an 'accident' of our circumstances.

Bhagavan's atma vichara thus strikes at the root ignorance - the very concept that there is a separate 'I', that is in bondage and needs to get liberated. There is only consciousness / energy / whatever you want to call it.

D. Samarender Reddy said...

Venkat,

Excellent comment. I couldn't agree more.

Mouna said...

Venkat greetings,

”Doesn't a common sense / scientific understanding of the material world give us Advaita - non duality - anyway?”

I still didn’t find a scientist (even those that go to the SAND conference) that is ready to accept Advaita principles as that all this(quantum field or whatever) is a projection of mind or ego, or that it never really happened, or that is unreal.
You are right in the sense that science is coming closer to the notion of oneness of everything in terms of energy and the illusion of doership and free will, but from there to acknowledge that the Big Bang never came to be or is a complete illusion there is a big leap of “faith” to be done by scientists.
There is a trend to equate latest finding of science with non-duality these days but let us remember that the exploration of anything that is not ourselves as ego (called anatma vichara) or any kind of action will never grant liberation according to Bhagavan and other sages.
Science is a process of learning, ours a process of unlearning.
The space of a dream is also all one, but that doesn’t grant it reality, according to Advaita’s definition of what is real.

. . said...

venkat, I concur, this reality must be true for anybody independent (or despite) of a philosophical system. As such all of the great sages, the Buddha, Jesus Christ, Krishna, etc. conveyed that (same) reality within the confines of their times and culture they lived in.

Alas over time ignorance asserted itself and those teachings got watered down by those (priests, monks, etc.) who have converted the simple truth into a "religion" and with that turned unity into diversity.

I believe that you Hindus are lucky to have the Vedas and Upanishads, which still convey the truth much clearer than the Bible of the Christians. In fact, IMO, the Bible is an utterly confused book and certainly lacks the depth of the Upanishads. Buddhism went a similar route with its countless sects and beliefs.

. . said...

Mouna, you mentioned SAND, I am getting regularly emails from them with their upcoming events (I bought a DVD in the past), however nothing there attracts me. It is the usual CA workshop/"satsang"/"intensive" spiel which may be entertaining for some but is, IMO, a waste of time. "Been there, done that".

Of course it may be inspiring for some, as long as they don't expect to "awaken" during or afterwards :-)

I actually was in a satsang with somebody (early 90s in India) who was then simply a seeker as everybody else and then later he became a popular "guru" and is giving now "satsangs" himself. His taken guru name starts with an M.

Mouna said...

Salazar my friend, one thing that can be said is real in this vyavaharic realm of existence is "the spiritual marketplace"!!!

Like Jimmy used to sing, "And so castles made of SAND, melts into the sea eventually"...

:)

venkat said...

Hi Salazar

Schopenhauer wrote of the Upanishads:

It is the most satisfying and elevating reading which is possible in the world; it has been the solace of my life and will be the solace of my death.

venkat said...

Mouna

As you know, the main focus of advaita is non-duality; the teaching that one's idea that one is a separate, limited (in time and space) body-mind is erroneous, an illusion; and that the truth is that one is the ever-present, unchanging consciousness.

It only goes into creation theories to satisfy enquiring minds, but that is not its main focus. However Gaudapada in Mandukya Karika writes:
2.16: First of all is imagined the jiva and then are imagined the various entities, objective and subjective, that are perceived.

Bhagavan says something similar in Sri Arunachala Ashtakam
6: You, the Heart, the light of consciousness, the one reality alone exist! A WONDERFUL POWER SAKTI EXISTS IN YOU AS NOT OTHER THAN YOU. FROM THAT SAKTI A SERIES OF SUBTLE SHADOWY THOUGHTS RISE and by means of consciousness in the whirl of destiny are simultaneously seen as shadowy world pictures, both inside on the mirror off the mind-light and outside through the senses, just like a cinema picture which exists through a lens. O HILL OF GRACE, WHETHER THEY (THE WORLD PICTURE) STOP APPEARING OR THEY CONTINUE APPEARING, THEY DO NOT EXIST APART FROM YOU.

So Bhagavan like Gaudapada, seems to be saying that the projection is by the Self, the Atman, through the power of sakti or of Maya.


Max said...

Dear Mr. James,

in a reply to a question you wrote: "[...] are you not clearly aware that you exist? That awareness ‘I am’ is pure self-awareness, so you are clearly aware of it [...]"

With this I try to get a better understanding of how to perform self-enquiry. If the goal of self-enquiry is to be aware that I exist without being aware of anything else, can I approach it by trying to be aware of that I exist? Although this probably implies the same as asking "Who am I ?" to me it seems like a slightly different way to approach self-enquiry.

Mouna said...

Venkat,

I think you already know what I am about to say but I’ll say it again just in case. Alos think is the second time we have this conversation.
First I'll explain the difference between two concepts and then why is important as seekers we are, to know it for practical purposes.

According to Vedanta, Brahman (absolute reality/consciousness/limitless/peace) is different from Ishwara (God or the Lord). At the conceptual level one could say Ishwara is a step down from Brahman, in the sense that we ascribe Brahman a power (or attributes) called Maya (ego) and it “becomes” Ishwara (in our view of course).

In hindu religious terminology there is Shivam (Brahman or absolute) and Shiva (the Great God) and his consort Sakti/Parvati/Durga/Kali/etc.. (Maya)
From Brahman "point of view” (figure of speech because Brahman could never have a POV) there is no such thing as an inherent power that veils and projects, but us jivas (or egos) we give Ishwara a power (like heat for fire or sweet for sugar) and we call it Maya or Shakti, in fact we ascribe attributes to Brahman whom then (for us) is transformed into the creator (Ishwara) of every possible and imaginable universe we jivas can conceive.

Brahman as such cannot be conceptualized, or seen, or talked about except trying to point to its inherent substance sat-chit-ananda.
As I understand this is the realm of ajata, where from creation (and all what entails and follows) never happened, us (ego) included.
“Self-realizing Brahman” as weird as this may sound, entails no more everything (no more every thing).
When we talk about Ishwara + Shakti we have a complete different conceptual structure, the world starts to make sense because projected by Ishwara (not self/Brahmen) through his Shakti power (ego-I-thought). Self-realization in this case becomes God-consciousness, and at this stage we can talk about the jnani still “experiencing” the world of phenomena after manonasa. As I understand, this is not the final ultimate stage (which will be ajata).
I think of this stage as “waking to the dream of life” as opposed to "waking from the dream" that will be the final ajata state.
It is my personal view and I can’t see anything that indicates I’m wrong when I base my observations unto the differents three states of waking, dream and specially deep sleep that overrides the other two obliterating them.

To understand this difference is important because many of us would think that we “realized” the self once we “don’t identify” with the phenomena that keep appearing. To me this is not complete self realization. I remember David Godman, in a recent interview commenting that for those that say that they are enlightened he will ask one question: “Do you still see the world?” and he continued saying that if they said yes, that would be the proof they are not…

My personal view of course, of the different stages of dream...

tattva darsanam said...

One should remember that we as the unborn self are never unrealised...
Therefore let's (wait and) see how things really stand.

* said...

The so-called three states of waking, dream, and deep sleep, and their content (or lack of it), appear in, are made of, and are known by the so-called fourth state - Awareness. In other words, Non-dual Awareness (Self) is all there is.

Awareness is Stillness. To know yourself as Awareness, be Stillness.

unmai unarcci said...

*,
because non-dual awareness is always here nothing should us prevent from knowing and being still(ness).
So when we actually experience the contrary of stillness only an exceptionally and exceedingly effective remedy will lead to a successful cure.

oli-uru said...

Salazar,
did you also study the Sermon on the Mount ?

* said...

unmai unarcci - the 'disease' which seems to prevent us from Knowing-Being (another name for Stillness) is misidentification with form (ego), the illusion of separation. The only remedy (practice) we need is a simple, but exceedingly effective one - to be Stillness. This remedy (along with perseverance and patience) will lead to a successful cure.

. . said...

oli-uru, yes I did, it might be one of the most popular and noticed section of the New Testament.

To be clear, I am not dismissing the New Testament (I, however, find the Old Testament to be a collection of fairy tales originating from ordinary people at that time), I just find it not as enlightening as the Upanishads. Growing up as a "Christian" I found the sermons by the priests boring and lacking of sincerity. As a kid I looked around and interestingly I did not see anybody who adhered to the ethics expounded in the New Testament. That included the various ministers and priests.

The question is also, how much from the New Testament is the original teaching of Jesus Christ? The first written version appeared more than 300 years after his death. Until then the gospels have been transmitted orally from generation to generation. The likelihood of distortion of the original teaching is very high.

Same is true for Buddhism where it took equally long (almost 500 years after the death of the Buddha) to the first written version what is the Pali Canon. I do not believe that the Pali Canon is reflecting the original teaching of the Buddha. 25 generations of Buddhists transmitted the teachings orally before it was written down. A great chance for ignorance to distort the original message.

tattva darsanam said...

Mouna,
you say "... when I base my observations unto the differents three states of waking, dream and specially deep sleep that overrides the other two obliterating them."

Do not conversely waking and dream actually happen to appear on the basis of the consciousness which predominates incessantly in deep sleep ?

unmai unarcci said...

*,
yes. (But how) can total silence actually be experienced despite of the fact that thoughts apparently hold sway over (most of) us ?

oli-uru said...

Salazar,
could you actually not learn any lesson from that Christian doctrine ?

. . said...

oli-uru, I am not sure of the point of your last comment. One can learn from anything including reading an American popular comic called "Scrooge McDuck" :-)

Mouna said...

tattva darsanam,

”Do not conversely waking and dream actually happen to appear on the basis of the consciousness which predominates incessantly in deep sleep ?”

As I understand yes, consciousness is always there as substance, then ego appears as waking and dream.

* said...

unmai unarcci - I always recommend the practice of atma-vichara, the practice of bringing the attention from thought to Silence, which is another name for Stillness, which is another name for Awareness, which is another name for yourSelf. Thought will sooner or later lose its sway over us, and Silence will be total...even in the midst of sound.

oli-uru said...

Salazar,
I was only relating to your yesterday statement "Bible is an utterly confused book".

unmai unarcci said...

*, thanks for sharing your experience.
May all what you wrote in your reply to me be so.
Or is all your revelation only your desired ideal/wishful thinking ?

* said...

It has nothing to do with thinking of any kind, u.u.

Yes, may it be so.

venkat said...

Hi Mouna

I don't really follow the various theories of Isvara in hinduism. This is more an area that has been developed by scholars, rather than being core to the upanishads, Gaudapada or Sankara.

I would simply point out that Bhagavan rarely if at all referred to Isvara as a concept. He simply referred to the Self / Arunachala / Brahman. In the verse I quoted from Arunachala Ashtakam, which you have ducked, he only refers to the Self, the One Reality, from which all thoughts arise.

Gaudapada in Mandukyakarika states (and Sankara in his commentary confirms):
19: The Atma is imagined as Prana and other endless objects. This is due to Maya (ignorance) of the luminous Atman itself by which It is (as it were) deluded.

Finally in the Brahma Sutras
1.4.23: Brahman is the material cause also of the world.
Sankara's commentary: These texts clearly show that Brahman is the material cause of the world; otherwise they would be meaningless. Again texts like "Brahman alone was at the beginning one without a second" show that It is also the efficient cause, for who else could be such a cause when there was nothing else?

There is no need to confuse matters with a conceptual Isvara, which is a 'step-down' from Brahman. There is only Brahman. And for an unknowable cause Maya has arisen which has led to an ignorant concept of separation (jiva) to arise within Brahman. But Brahman is the witness-consciousness of all that is, which is itself.

Purification of mind does NOT reflect on one’s outward behavior, a purified mind is no mind and any perceived behavior is illusion said...

oli-uru, yes - the Bible is (of course in my opinion) an utterly confused book. And the Bible consists of the Old and New Testament and I was mostly thinking of the Old Testament when I mentioned "utterly confused". But there a parts of the New Testament which are pretty unclear too.

I do not know how familiar you are with the Old Testament but there are stories of incest, murder, and many other strange happenings. According to many Christians, "the word of God". Of course I do not agree at all with that assumption :-)

Michael James said...

Venkat, regarding the comment in which you quote a translation of verse 6 of Śrī Aruṇācala Aṣṭakam and then remark about it, ‘So Bhagavan like Gaudapada, seems to be saying that the projection is by the Self, the Atman, through the power of sakti or of Maya’, what projects all phenomena is not our real nature (ātma-svarūpa) as such but only the mind, which is the atiśaya śakti (extraordinary or wonderful power) that Bhagavan refers to in that verse, as we can understand by comparing and noting the close similarity between the first two sentences of that verse, ‘உண்டு ஒரு பொருள் அறிவு ஒளி உளமே நீ. உளது உனில் அலது இலா அதிசய சத்தி’ (uṇḍu oru poruḷ aṟivu oḷi uḷamē nī. uḷadu uṉil aladu ilā atiśaya śatti), ‘There is one substance, [which is] only you, the heart, the light of awareness. In you exists an atiśaya śakti, which is not other [than you]’, and the first two sentences of the fourth paragraph of Nāṉ Yār?, ‘மன மென்பது ஆத்ம சொரூபத்தி லுள்ள ஓர் அதிசய சக்தி. அது சகல நினைவுகளையும் தோற்றுவிக்கின்றது’ (maṉam eṉbadu ātma-sorūpattil uḷḷa ōr atiśaya śakti. adu sakala niṉaivugaḷaiyum tōṯṟuvikkiṉḏṟadu), ‘What is called mind is an atiśaya śakti that exists in ātma-svarūpa [the ‘own form’ or real nature of oneself]. It makes all thoughts appear [or projects all thoughts]’.

Though the mind exists in ātma-svarūpa (which is Arunachala, one substance, the heart, the light of awareness) and is not other than it, it is like an illusory snake, which appears ‘in’ a rope and is not other than it, so it is not real but just an illusory appearance. As you implied, it is māyā, which as Bhagavan often pointed out means ‘she who is not’ or ‘what does not exist’.

Therefore when Bhagavan says that the mind projects all thoughts (which implies all phenomena, since all phenomena are just thoughts or mental phenomena), and later in the same paragraph says that it projects the world and again withdraws it into itself, he does not mean that ātma-svarūpa projects all thoughts or the world. As it actually is, ātma-svarūpa does not project anything, so it is only as the unreal appearance called mind or māyā that it seems to project everything, just as a rope as it is does not cause any fear, so it is only as the unreal appearance of a snake that it causes fear.

Mouna said...

Venkat,
It is a little surprising that someone that quotes the Brahma Sutras and the Karikas could come with such statements as “...the various theories of Isvara in hinduism. This is more an area that has been developed by scholars”. Is like trying to quote Einstein’s theory of relativity without understanding Newton’s gravity.

Also Brahman is also a concept in the mind, as Ishwara and everything else. But all those are pointers to understand the whole thing, and that is what makes concepts valuable.

Last but not least, you say: “ But Brahman is the witness-consciousness of all that is, which is itself.” I don’t think Brahman witnesses anything, would be like saying that the rope “witnesses” the snake that is projected on top of it, which make no sense because for the rope there is no snake, the illusory snake only seems to exist and be real for the deluded ego.

Michael James said...

Max, in answer to your comment in which you say that you are trying ‘to get a better understanding of how to perform self-enquiry’, ātma-vicāra (self-investigation or self-enquiry) is not just asking ‘who am I?’ but investigating who am I.

Unfortunately because ātma-vicāra is generally translated as ‘self-enquiry’, and because in English ‘enquire’ can mean either investigate or ask, in many English books it is implied that Bhagavan said we should ask ‘who am I?’, whereas what he actually meant is that we should investigate who am I. This is the sense in which he used the noun vicāra (vicāram or vicāraṇai in Tamil) and the verb vicāri, so in the context of his teachings it is best to translate them as ‘investigation’ and ‘investigate’ respectively. This is also the sense in which the used the Tamil noun nāṭṭam and verb nāḍu, which he frequently used in place of vicāram and vicāri.

Therefore ātma-vicāra means self-investigation, so it is investigating who am I, and we can investigate who or what we are only by keenly attending to or observing ourself, or in other words, by being keenly self-attentive. But what is the ‘self’ we are to investigate, examine, observe or attend to? It is obviously not the body or mind, which are adjuncts that appear in waking and dream and disappear in sleep, but only our fundamental self-awareness, which exists and shines in all three states.

Since self-awareness is awareness of our own existence or being, ‘I am’, being self-attentive means being attentively aware of our existence, so the answer to your question ‘can I approach it [self-enquiry] by trying to be aware of that I exist?’ is yes, certainly.

Bear in mind, however, that we are always aware that we exist, so what is required is that we should be attentively aware that we exist. That is, though we are always aware of our existence, ‘I am’, we are generally more interested in being aware of other things, so we neglect our fundamental self-awareness, and hence it shines in the background without our attending to it. In other words, we are generally negligently aware that we exist, so what we need is to be attentively aware that we exist. Such attentive self-awareness is the correct practice of ātma-vicāra.

There are different terms in which we can describe and understand this practice, and Bhagavan described and explained it in various different ways in order to help us understand it more clearly, but however he described it all boils down to simply being attentively self-aware or attentively aware that I am.

Gospel of Thomas said...

Dear Salazar



;)

Max said...

Dear Mr. James,

thank you so much for the clarification.

Bhagavan said that following a sattvic diet will help us on our path. Although one could say that nutrition is only secondary, to me it seems very important as it affects my ability to focus my attention during self-enquiry. Can you therefore say something about it beyond "don't eat meat"? (milk, chesse, unfertilized eggs and organically produced versions of these, coffee ...)

kurnda matiyal said...

Michael,
regarding your reply to Max,
"...but however he described it all boils down to simply being attentively self-aware or attentively aware that I am."
Because even a frog is aware of its existence we have to place emphasis on the term 'attentiveness' of our self-awareness. I hope to understand that finally and be able to apply the required attentiveness sufficiently in order to capture the fortress of the terrifying dragon of the ego. I wait eagerly for chopping off the ego's head.

Cecil said...


Hi Michael,

I posted the below question last month. I know you are busy with your articles and videos but I noticed you have answered a few questions recently on your blog, I am just posting my question again with the hope you could she some light. I completely understand if you don't have time.

My understanding is Bhagavan says that any state where phenomena is experienced is nothing but a dream so waking and dream are just dreams as are previous births / lives. They are all no more real than the other and just the same, just dreams.

The ego rises and takes a different body / person to be itself in all three dreams, (waking, dream and a previous life).

If this is the case please could you explain to me why during waking I can remember my dreams often in great detail but conversely I can't recollect my previous lives during waking which are also just dreams?

I can only conclude that they are not all the same and just dreams but there must be some kind of fundamental difference between waking, dream and previous life?

Thank you very much indeed for helping clear up my misunderstanding.

Cecil

Mouna said...

Cecil, greetings
I know you asked Michael your question (question which I found quite interesting) but allow me to give it a shot, waiting for Michael’s response that may or may not come for the reasons you explained, but this is what I thought as possible explanation according to Bhagavan’s teachings.
You asked:
”If this is the case please could you explain to me why during waking I can remember my dreams often in great detail but conversely I can't recollect my previous lives during waking which are also just dreams?”
Imagine the suffering a veteran of the war has to endure coming back from wars abroad reviving all his or her memories of death, murder and suffering... that’s why in those cases war veterans suffer from PTSD (Post Traumatic Disorder).
Bhagavan explained somewhere that not remembering past lifetimes is a kind of shutdown mechanism given by God’s compassion in order to prevent the sanity of the new body ego takes as host and projects to identify with. (I am paraphrasing and giving my own interpretation of what I remember reading about Bhagavan’s explanation). It does make sense isn’t it?
Now the objection may rise that God (as the world) is also a projection of maya (ego), but that is also the case with Cecil! So the point comes back again and again to try to investigate if there is a Cecil (with past lives, dreams and waking) in the first place, or in other words “who is asking the question, and is it real?”
We can’t escape the implacable nature of self-investigation that reduces every thought, concept, question or phenomena to the ultimate quest of what is this “I”?
Eventually, answering these kind of questions satisfactorily or not will not take us any closer to realize who we really are, but investigating its source, according to Bhagavan, is the only way it will, meaning the real answer is the final dissolution of the questioner...

But Michael for sure might have the correct answer for you, hopefully he might find the time someday to give it to you (or not!)

Be well,
M

oli-uru said...

(Salazar),
"I believe that you Hindus are lucky to have the Vedas and Upanishads, which still convey the truth much clearer than the Bible of the Christians."
What is the evidence that the Vedas convey the truth much (clearer than the Bible of the Christians) ?
To be honest I did not study the "Sermon on the Mount". I also grew up in a Christian surrounding from which I grasped that the "Sermon on the Mount" is considered to be the quintessence of the Christian doctrine. So I cannot anymore pin my hopes on you to learn important details about that part of the New Testament.

Michael James said...

Cecil, you are correct in saying that Bhagavan taught us that any state in which phenomena appear is just a dream, so what now seems to be our waking state and all our previous lives are dreams just as much as are the dreams we experience while asleep.

The reason why in this dream we are able to remember some of the things that we experienced during other dreams within this life, and why during those dreams we are able to remember some of the things that we experienced during this dream, is that those dreams are dreams that occur within this dream. That is, you are now dreaming that you are Cecil, and within the lifetime of Cecil (which is just a dream) you spend some time every day in sleep, and your sleep is sometimes interrupted by other dreams. Since those other dreams occur within your dream of being Cecil, during them you can usually remember that you are Cecil, and that as Cecil you have experienced and learnt certain things, and likewise as Cecil in this dream you can now remember some of the things that you experienced in Cecil’s other dreams.

In your previous lives, however, you did not dream that you were Cecil, but in each one of them you dreamt that you were some other person. Therefore though some people, particularly children up to about the age of six, do sometimes have more or less vague memories of their previous lives, such memories are rare, and they generally fade as the child becomes more familiar with being the person they seem to be in this dream.

We have now forgotten many of the things that we have experienced in this life, particularly many of our past dreams, so the fact that we have forgotten our past lives is nothing to be surprised about. With the passing of time old memories fade, and they are almost completely obliterated when we cease experiencing ourself as one person and instead begin to experience ourself as another person.

Perhaps memories of our past lives are still buried deep within us, because it seems that under hypnosis memories of past lives may rise to the surface of the mind. However, we should not attach any importance to memories, because they are all just phenomena, so like all other phenomena they appear and disappear, and hence they are not real. To whom do they appear? That is what we need to investigate.

Now we remember certain things about our childhood and about our life since then, including some of our past dreams, but these memories seem to exist only when they rise to the surface of our mind, so they are phenomena appearing in the present. Though they are about the past, they are just thoughts arising now. As Bhagavan says in verse 15 of Uḷḷadu Nāṟpadu: ‘Past and future stand holding the present. While occurring, they too are actually the present. The present is the only one. Not knowing the reality of the present, trying to know the past or future is trying to count without one’.

Therefore instead of concerning ourself with memories (or forgetfulness) of the past, let us take interest only in investigating what we ourself are here and now. Memories and other phenomena come and go, but we remain, so who or what is this ‘I’, the one who perceives all these phenomena?

Cecil said...

Dear Mouna
Thank you very much indeed for your comment it was most welcome as are all your comments on this blog.

Yes your advice is good and solid Mouna. The only life I should be focusing on is this one and I should focus my attention on the first person and the present moment. But my weakness shows by asking this stupid question (joke)!!!.

So please excuse the below gibberish !!!

My understanding is there are previous births/lives that the ego has projected and experienced. Michael often says anyone who discovers what they are with little effort must be ripe or must have done the work in previous lives.

I don't think I can remember my previous lives because I wasn't there as Cecil the person /body the ego has presently taken to be itself or identified with. But the ego was there throughout all dreams because it is the dreamer and my understanding is there is only one ego or only one dreamer.

The thing that baffles me Mouna is if I injured myself in my dream my body on waking shows no sign of the injury so I can conclude first hand it was a different physical body in dream and waking (dream body and waking body).

From what I understand when the ego projects a body (consisting of 5 sheaths (some physical in nature and some mental in nature) it doesn't project some or keep some and replace others it projects a body consisting of 5 sheaths, all 5 sheaths it doesn't mix and match sheaths?.

If that is the case though I should not have any recollection of my dreams. But I do and can vouch for that first hand. So the mental sheaths are there in both waking and dream but not the physical sheaths which are different?

Any feedback is most welcome and yes I do hope Michael steps in and ends my misunderstanding.

Thanks again Mouna.

Cecil

holy buglkraxn said...

Mouna,
"Eventually, answering these kind of questions satisfactorily or not will not take us any closer to realize who we really are, but investigating its source, according to Bhagavan, is the only way it will, meaning the real answer is the final dissolution of the questioner..."
Therefore, as you say, in order to know who we really are the most important thing on earth is to learn practising the most accurate, precise, meticulous, thorough and effective way of self-investigation.
Arunachala.

Cecil said...

Dear Michael
Sorry for posting my previous comment after your reply, I just realised!
That was extremely helpful Michael and makes perfect sense.
Thank you for taking the time to shed some much needed light on this for me.

Bhagavan's teachings are so simple and clear but this just got me thinking (not good) and would not cease until now.

Thank you.
Cecil


holy buglkraxn said...

Michael,
your recent reply to Cecil is in the usual great manner. Thanks.

. . said...

oli-uru, I regret that I cannot be more helpful with the Sermon on the Mount, however I do not see that particular talk Jesus supposedly has given as the quintessence of Christian doctrine.
You asked about evidence that the Vedas convey the truth much clearer than the Bible. I dropped a few points about the Old Testament in a previous comment; however I don’t feel compelled to line up a number of facts which made me arrive at that conclusion. I have no desire to prove my point, I invite you to make up your own mind and come to your own conclusion.
Feel free to disagree, however it seems strange for me that you raise that question since you said that you have not read the Sermon on the Mount and therefore most likely not much of the Bible at all. Since you are not familiar with the Bible, why are you asking me why I don’t like it? Or why would you ask anybody else for that matter? If you agree with my opinion then let the Bible be as it is, or, if you do not agree, read the Bible and make up your own mind.

How can you agree or disagree without having some knowledge of the Vedas and the Bible?

Now we went quite off-topic here and I’d like to emphasize that we are so extremely lucky to have our own Jesus Christ or Buddha in the form of Bhagavan. In addition we have contemporary and authentic teachings by him which had not yet the chance to get distorted over time.

I consider Nan Yar (and other texts by Bhagavan) to be much more helpful than the Sermon on the Mount or any other part of the New Testament. In fact, with Bhagavan no other spiritual text is necessary to read, that even includes the Upanishads.

To have faith in Bhagavan is much more important than the knowledge of any text.

Mouna said...

Michael, greetings

I noticed something (in a recent response you gave to Max a few comments above) that puzzled me a little bit, the way it was written, and wanted to clarify my understanding of what you said, which is:

”But what is the ‘self’ we are to investigate, examine, observe or attend to? It is obviously not the body or mind, which are adjuncts that appear in waking and dream and disappear in sleep, but only our fundamental self-awareness, which exists and shines in all three states.”

As per my understanding of Bhagavan’s teachings and most of what I read from you, the investigation examination and observation starts and is primarily on ego… We can’t really examine our fundamental awareness since we are it, but investigating or examining who or what is this “I” that I feel and think I am, we start to notice it’s dissolution because it can’t stand the scrutiny of our self attentiveness (like the man posing as member of the groom’s and bride’s family at the same time and taking flight once people start investigating who the hell is he!).

Your translation of Ulladu Narpadu Verse 26 reads (I bold some of the letters): "If the ego comes into existence, everything comes into existence; if the ego does not exist, everything does not exist. [Hence] the ego itself is everything. Therefore, know that investigating what this [ego] is alone is giving up everything.”

As I understand, the turning of attention towards ego sense of “I” reveals the fundamental substance by dissolving the limiting and illusory attributes ego survives and feed with, revealing our fundamental substance, which in turn is what we abide in.

In other words, what we try to examine first is the snake we think we are seeing, and by throwing light on it, eventually we realize there was never one... it was always a rope. The friend (guru) that sheds a light on the “snake” we are mistankenly seeing tells us first: “Look at the snake carefully and tell me what you see..” (he doesn’t say: "look at the rope") and then we realize our error by seeing only a rope. If before entering the dark shed he tell us that what lies there is a rope we won’t really believe him 100% until we have the experience of seeing it as a rope. Granted, the snake is only a rope, but unless we throw light on the “snake” first we will never be able to see that is only a rope.

I believe is more a question on how you phrased the above mentioned paragraph that puzzled me.

Thank you, if and when you have time I’ll appreciate if you could clarify that paragraph you wrote to Max for me.

Mouna

oli-uru said...

Salazar,
thank you for replying although my questions were asked a bit from a jocular and mischievous position.
Actually I did not want to write it: if I can trust my instinct, from the style and the contents of your comments written this year one would frankly and happily infer more inner ripeness than it appeared around twenty month ago.

Michael James said...

Mouna, in reply to your comment in which you ask about the wording of my reply to Max, when we look carefully are what seems to be a snake, what are we actually looking at? Only a rope. Likewise when we look at what seems to us to be this ego, what we are actually looking at is our fundamental self-awareness. This is why Bhagavan says, as recorded in the last chapter of Maharshi’s Gospel (2002 edition, p. 89):

“The ego functions as the knot between the Self which is Pure Consciousness and the physical body which is inert and insentient. The ego is therefore called the chit-jada granthi. In your investigation into the source of aham-vritti [the I-thought or ego], you take the essential chit [awareness] aspect of the ego; and for this reason the enquiry must lead to the realization of the pure consciousness of the Self.”

The essential cit (awareness) aspect of the ego is our fundamental self-awareness, ‘I am’, which exists and shines in all three states.

You say ‘We can’t really examine our fundamental awareness since we are it’, but that amounts to saying that we cannot investigate ourself, which is clearly not correct. We are always clearly aware of ourself (whether we take ourself to be the ego or its fundamental self-awareness), so we can investigate or examine ourself.

As I wrote in that reply to Max, the practice of self-investigation can be described and understood in different terms, but however it may be described it all boils down to simply being attentively self-aware. Since we now experience ourself as this ego, we can describe being self-attentive as watching the ego, but since the ego is essentially just self-awareness, albeit mixed with adjuncts, we can also describe watching the ego as attending to our fundamental self-awareness.

Bhagavan often described ātma-vicāra as investigating the source of the ego (as he did in the above reply recorded in Maharshi’s Gospel) or investigating the place from which the ego rises, so since the source or place from which the ego originates is only our fundamental self-awareness, by implication he was saying that we should investigate our fundamental self-awareness. However, since our fundamental self-awareness is what the ego essentially and actually is (just as the rope is what the snake essentially and actually is), there is no difference in practice between investigating the ego, investigating its source, investigating its reality, investigating its substance or investigating its fundamental self-awareness.

venkat said...

Hi Michael

Thanks for your response. My understanding of your interpretation of Bhagavan's teaching is that an illusory ego is not ever born, even as an illusion; and that this never created illusory ego, then imagines an illusory world. If this non-existent dream of an ego is fortunate, Bhagavan appears, which by and by causes this illusory ego to do atma vichara and thence (hopefully) destroy itself.

In Nan Yar, where Bhagavan uses the example of the mind spinning a web, and then drawing it back within itself, he is paralleling Brhandaranyka Upanishad which states:
2.1.20: As a spider moves along the thread (it produces) , and as spark fly in all directions, so from this Self emanate all organs, all worlds, all goods and all beings.

When Bhagavan talks about the knot between the insentient body and the real self, from which the ego arises, this begs the question, in your interpretation, of how did the imaginary insentient body arise BEFORE the ego, if the insentient body is a projection of the ego.

Consequently I would interpret that verse in Arunachala Ashtakam, to be saying that in Consciousness arises a series of thoughts, and one of these thoughts essentially attaches itself to other thoughts and thereby arbitrarily and erroneously objectifies them into me and not-me.

venkat said...

Hi Carlos

I note that you still haven't actually responded to any of my references, and rather make assertions. You wrote:

"I don’t think Brahman witnesses anything, would be like saying that the rope “witnesses” the snake that is projected on top of it, which make no sense because for the rope there is no snake, the illusory snake only seems to exist and be real for the deluded ego."

My thoughts:

Please re-read my original Gaudapada and Brahma Sutra references, and:

Brhadaranyaka Up 2.4.14: "Through what should one know That owing to which all this is known? . . . Through what O Maitreyi should one know the Knower?"
This is clearly referencing consciousness as the knower, and stating that the jiva can in no way know the Knower.

Bhagavad Gita chapter 13, refers to the field (the world) and the field knower (Krishna, the Self.

And Mundaka Up talks about "two birds united always and known by the same name, closely cling to the same tree. One of them eats the sweet fruit; the other looks on without eating". Sankara in his commentary makes clear that the other, Pure Consciousness, is the detached witness of the first bird's activity.

I think you have got caught up in the idea that deep sleep equates to pure consciousness, and thereby convinced yourself that pure consciousness cannot witness anything, since in deep sleep you don't witness anything. This is not the teaching of Shankara's advaita, nor I believe that of Bhagavan.

We no doubt will have to agree to disagree.

gargoyle said...

Oli-uru said…

In your reply to Salazar and inner ripeness I concur.

If I could use the words, a ‘gentler and kinder' Salazar seems to have appeared. But I won’t tell him that cause it might go to his head and we gotta stay away from pride.

Salazar is not the only one I have noticed having a kinder and gentler attitude though.

Hanging around Bhagavan seems to have that effect (or affect?) How wonderful that is!

sat-jnanam said...

"Since our fundamental self-awareness is what the ego essentially and actually is" I would assume that the ego has that essential quality/characteristic/capacity already from beginning to end of its seeming existence.
If above all one considers that in your investigation into the source of aham-vritti [the I-thought or ego], we take the essential chit [awareness] aspect of the ego, and if one simultaneously takes into account the fact that the ego does (seem to) exist only in its own view, our necessary practice of the ego/mind namely investigating its substance or its fundamental self-awareness seems to be quite grotesque or even paradoxical.

Mouna said...

Hi Venkat,
At least we agree in one thing and that is that we disagree!

Out of home right at this very moment. I’ll address your comments later.
Thank you
C

padam said...

Michael,
just noticed:
your reply to Mouna's comment first appeared with the date 4 April 2018 at 20:59
and now it is dated 4 April 2018 at 22:21.

Sanjay Lohia said...

While we are trying to turn within, sometimes we seem to go very deep within ourself but other times not so deep. Whenever we are able to penetrate deep within ourself that is a good sign, because our aim is to go deeper and deeper within ourself. However, this also indicates that we were floating on the surface of the mind before we were able to dive very deep within, and this indicates that we have a long way to go in our practice.

In other words, only an extroverted mind can dive deep within. A mind which is already stabilized relatively deep within, will not feel that it is able to dive deep much further. For example, we can dive very deep into the ocean only we are starting our dive from the surface of the ocean, but if we have already gone relatively deep within, we will not be able to dive much deeper from where we are at that point.

Therefore whenever we are able to go very deep within ourself, we should realise that we exist most of time on the surface of our mind, and thus we require more and more effort to exist much deeper within us - that is, we need to live deep within ourself before we can hope to reach the bottom of the ocean.

I am not sure if I have communicated this point very clearly. Any feedback will be appreciated.

Sanjay Lohia said...

Max, you have asked Michael about the benefits of following a sattvic diet, especially in the context of our practice of self-investigation. May I share my reflections on this topic? Bhagavan has answered your questions in the 9th paragraph of Nan Yar?:

By mita sāttvika āhāra-niyama [the restraint of consuming only a moderate quantity of sattva-conducive food], which is the best among all restrictions, the sattva-guṇa [the quality of ‘being-ness’, calmness and clarity] of the mind will increase and [thereby] help will arise for self-investigation.

Therefore, we can see why you write: ‘Although one could say that nutrition is only secondary, to me it seems very important as it affects my ability to focus my attention during self-enquiry’. Bhagavan says that consuming only a moderate quantity of sattvic diet is the best among all restrictions.

As you imply, in our modern context, only a vegan (a plant-based) diet - consisting of predominantly fruits and vegetables - can be considered sattvik. However, we can turn our vegan diet into not so sattvic, if we consume the wrong types of vegan food or even if we consume the right types of food in excess quantity.

For example, we may consume vegan foods which are heavily processed, or which have excessive garlic or chillies, or which have excessive salt, or which are cooked in excess oil and so on. Obviously, these types of food cannot be considered sattvic. Again liquour cannot be considered sattvic, even though it is of plant origin. Yes, tea and coffee are also not so sattvic. Such foods can be termed rajasic (foods that induce passion or excitement) or tamasic (foods that induce inactivity or lethargy).

However, the point which we may overlook is Bhagavan’s advice to eat only mita ahara (food in moderate quantity). We usually overstuff our stomachs, and I speak for myself when I write this, and such overeating is not good for our practice of self-investigation. It may make our stomach acidic and may make us feel lethargic. Such lethargy will make us either sleep more or at least make us drowsy.

Thus we need to void over-eating even the right kind of vegan foods as an aid to stay alert, because only an alert mind can practice self-investigation with relative ease.

padam said...

Sanjay Lohia,
is it not more accurate to say that only an introverted mind can dive deep within ?

Sanjay Lohia said...

Padam, no, I meant what I wrote, that is 'only an extroverted mind can dive deep within. A mind which is already stabilized relatively deep within, will not feel that it is able to dive deep much further'.

It is only when we try an introvert our extroverted mind that we will feel that we are diving deep within.

Sanjay Lohia said...

Typo: Please read: It is only when we try to introvert our extroverted minds, will we feel that we are diving deep within.

padam said...

Sanjay Lohia,
when you say 'only an extroverted mind can dive deep within'...

Let us start from the correct assumption that "extroverted" means unambiguously "turned outwardly" we can hardly assert that an "extroverted" mind could be able to dive deep within.
Such a mind can at most go out into the big wide world.
So we should not get the word meaning completely wrong.

* said...

The belief in an introverted, extroverted, or separate mind is, at the same time, the denial of an Infinite Self, and an Infinite Self can only be exactly where you are and who you are.

Sanjay Lohia said...

*, you say, ‘Infinite Self can only be exactly where you are and who you are’. I agree, but that does not mean that talking about our mind is useless. It is because though we are the infinite self, we do not experience ourself as such but only experience ourself as this ego – this mixed awareness ‘I am this body’.

Therefore we need to introvert our extroverted mind in order to experience ourself as we actually are. Bhagavan’s entire teachings are about the need to turn our mind within. So introversion of our mind is the step one of atma-vichara and it is also the last step, because we will finally succeed only with the help of an introverted mind.

As Bhagavan says in verse 22 of Ulladu Narpadu:

Consider, except by, turning the mind back within, completely immersing it in God, who shines within that mind giving light to the mind, how to fathom God by the mind?

Bhagavan had to appear before us basically to tell us the following two things:

One, you yourself are what you are seeking. That is, you may call whatever you are seeking as happiness, God, guru, self or whatever; these are all different names of what you actually are.

Two, all your problems seem to exist only because you are presently facing outwards, away from yourself, and therefore the only worthwhile thing you can ‘do’ is to turn within and experience yourself as we actually are.

If we understand these two things, it should be sufficient. Our job now is just to practise and practise till we succeed.


* said...

"‘Infinite Self can only be exactly where you are and who you are’. I agree..."

Why not leave it there, Sanjay? Be Silence, be Stillness, be your Infinite Self. Make the goal your practice.

Mouna said...

Dear Salazar and Venkat,

I promised you both to respond to your commentaries some days ago on our common discussions about some topics related to Advaita and Bhagavan’s teachings.
Not that I didn’t want to respond but unfortunately by now, and because of some worldly business I have to attend to, my day to day time became very short to use it other than by trying to work (and self-investigate!).
I consider your inputs very valuable (as well as Michael’s and others in this blog) for not only shaping further my understanding of Bhagavan’s teachings but also as inspiration to deepen my daily practice. As we all know, discussions and exchanges of this sort is not about who is right or knows more but mainly how can we strengthen our commitment, surrender and love for Bhagavan, His teaching and His sangha.
I’ll keep reading the blog for now.
Be well friends,
Mouna (aka Carlos... and vice versa!)

. . said...

Oli-uru and gargoyle; interesting observation, if true I cannot take any credit that must be Bhagavan’s doing. He keeps me out of my comfort zone lately, something my ego absolutely despises.

. . said...

Dear Mouna, take your time with your response......

And I agree, you guys inputs are very valuable, in your exchange with venkat I tend to agree slightly more with his comments (with that particular topic), but somehow I have the feeling that the difference in understanding is pretty subtle and at the end it may be quite different than the mind now believes it is. Nonetheless it is interesting to read ....

I also enjoy Michael's currently more frequent comments, the last paragraph of his last comment was priceless :-)

P.S. venkat, I used to read Schopenhauer when I was in my twenties, his main work "Die Welt als Wille und Vorstellung", translated to "The world as sankalpa (will, intention) and imagination" was truly influenced by the Upanishads which he frequently quoted. Because of him I looked up the Upanishads.

venkat said...

Hi Salazar

I too read Schopenhauer, though in the English rather than his original German, way before I read the Upanishads. And I found his philosophy and that of Spinoza the most thoughtful and straight-forward. To be honest I took a long time to find my way to advaita, through diversions into Lao Tse and Ch'an.

Best
venkat

sat-jnanam said...

At different times our mind has different qualities and abilities to understand different levels of topics and insights.
Because the mind has different requirements at different times the satisfaction of our mind's needs requires different ways. Therefore we can watch how that things occur in our different reactions and statements. Quite funny.

here and now said...

Relating to the above comment:
Sometimes we read any teaching in a book or script and do not or cannot respond immediately to it. At a later time - perhaps later on the same day, week, month or year or even some years later - we may read the same teaching again and might absorb it enthusiastically. Quite similar the capacity to experience particular situations in life and to learn from them may differ considerably.

Sanjay Lohia said...

Michael: I am sorry to say that even after 40 years of practising self-investigation, I notice no difference in me. If at all there is any difference, I am now more painfully aware of how strong my vasanas are.

Sadhu Om said that people imagine that when you advance on the path, it becomes very easy – your mind becomes very pure so everything will be easy. He said it is not so; it becomes more and more difficult as you go on. Because the more the mind is purified, the more every speck of dirt in it becomes very clear.

Sadhu Om used to give the analogy of the moon. In a crescent moon, can you see any craters? Crescent moon looks like a pure silver line, doesn’t it? Only when the moon becomes bigger and bigger, when it is a half moon, you can vaguely begin to see the craters. Only when there is a full bright moon, we see the craters most clearly.

So the more our mind is purified, the more clearly the blemishes in our mind become clear, and more painfully we will become aware as to how much more desire we have for experiencing other things. So we shouldn’t expect that if we go along the path, it will become easy all the way. It will become more and more difficult.

~*~ Edited transcript from a portion of Michael’s video dated April 24, 2016 (afternoon)

My note: Suppose we are a sprinter and are running a 100 meters race; we know where our finishing is. But just imagine, when we start running and are nearing this finishing line, the finishing line somehow advances further and further. We have, therefore, to keep on running until we meet the finishing line. How frustrated and restless will we become if we encounter such a scenario?

Likewise, when we start practising self-investigation we come to know that our finishing line is atma-jnana (that is, experiencing ourself as we actually are). At times we may feel that we are very near this finishing line, but it always becomes out of our reach as we seem to come near it. In this case also, like in our previous example, we just keep ‘running and running’ (or keep practising), but our finishing line keeps on advancing further and further, so it seems. So in this race also we at times become restless.

So, as Michael says, ‘the more our mind is purified, the more painfully we will become aware that how much more desire we have for experiencing other things’. It is only these desires and attachments which are preventing us from reaching our ‘finishing line’. Nevertheless, we will surely reach it if we keep at our practice. However, as Michael once said, when we reach it we will not even notice that we have crossed the finishing line, because we (the ego) will no longer be there to notice anything.

son of Siva said...

"So the more our mind is purified, the more clearly the blemishes in our mind become clear, and more painfully we will become aware as to how much more desire we have for experiencing other things. So we shouldn’t expect that if we go along the path, it will become easy all the way. It will become more and more difficult."
I have the strong impression that it is so.
That's a fine prospect !
Nevertheless, I will walk further on the path chosen because I do not feel any sensible alternative for me.

Sanjay Lohia said...

Son of Siva, yes, since we have decided to walk on the path of self-discovery, we now have no other alternative: we just need to keep walking until we reach our destination. It is a like a one-way road; on this road, the vehicles can go only in one direction. The vehicles cannot come from the opposite direction.

Likewise, we are travelling on a one-way path. We just need to travel in one direction: that is, deeper and deeper within ourself. There is no turning back or taking any other route.

Bharadvaja said...

Don't panic, there is no hurry, we have all the time of the world.
In the next hundred thousand years our ripeness will increase like the crescent moon.

tapas said...

Sanjay Lohia,
"We just need to travel in one direction: that is, deeper and deeper within ourself. There is no turning back or taking any other route. "
Which direction will we walk after reaching the center of ourself ?
Or will that be the end of the ego's journey ?

* said...

Ask yourself:

In what direction, and how deep must I go to be where I am? How long will it take to be where I am? How hard is it to be where I am?

Those are very important questions, because the only place you will ever find yourSelf is exactly where you are. The Truth of your Being is revealed in Stillness.

"All that is required to realize the Self is to be still. What can be easier than that?" - R

Sanjay Lohia said...

Tapas, if our ego is destroyed, we will reach the centre of ourself, that is, we will experience ourself as we actually are. This will be the end of our ego and consequently of all its journeys or actions. We can read verse 15 of Upadesa Undiyar to understand this better:

When the form of the mind is annihilated, for the great yogi who is [thereby] established as the reality, there is not a single doing [or action], [because] he has attained his [true] nature [which is actionless being].

Michael has explained this verse in the book Upadesa Saram – The complete version in four languages… published by the asramam. I will try and reproduce Michael’s ideas in my own words:

Our sense of doership – the sense that ‘I am doing this or that’ – can exist only as long as our ego exists. As long as our ego rises, we will always identify ourself with a body and mind, and since our body and mind act according to its prarabdha and also according to its will, we feel that we are the doers of the actions done by our body and mind.

However, if our ego is destroyed by self-investigation, we will lose all our connection with our body and mind, and thus we will also lose all our sense of doership. Consequently, we will not act in any way, because we will become established in our true state, which is actionless being.

Michael says, ‘Since our mind is the original cause, source and base of all activity, this mind-free state of just being is entirely devoid of the least activity, karma or ‘doing’’. This is because without our mind there is no world, and without any world how can we act is anyway. We cannot comprehend or understand this state, because this is a state where our ego or mind is simply not there.

Bhagavan has written a parallel verse of verse 15 of Upadesa Undiyar, which is verse 31 of Ulladu Narpadu:

For those who are happiness composed of that, which rose destroying themself, what one exists for doing? They do not know anything other than themself; who can conceive their state as ‘like this’?

. . said...

* quotes ‘R’ (I suppose Robert Adams?), “All that is required to realize the Self is to be still. What can be easier than that?" and before * said, “Ask yourself: In what direction, and how deep must I go to be where I am? How long will it take to be where I am? How hard is it to be where I am?”

My comment on that: Is it really that easy to be still (as in no activity of the mind)? Not really, our vasanas prevent that. To deny that fact is delusional. The vasanas compulsory conjure up thoughts and the strong habit to believe these thoughts simply prevent one to be still. Therefore atma-vichara is required – Full Stop.

“How deep must I go where I am? How long will it take? How hard is it to be where I am?”

Sure, it seems it is not hard to be, alas those pesky thoughts and desires keep coming up and cover up Being. So we ARE but that is not really noticed due to its extreme subtlety and the interest in the phenomenal world prevents simply Being in the sense sages point to.

There is no short-cut, everybody has to go through life-times of sadhana, and one cannot trick one’s mind into the fantasy of “I am just being quiet and that’s it”.

I am afraid that is a trap of the mind abusing pointers of the sages.

* said...

The 'R' who was quoted is Ramana.

It's as hard as you make it, Salazar. Do yourself a favor - be quiet.

. . said...

Dear *, as I said before, (my) mind cannot be quiet in the sense of summa iru. And I highly doubt it that you do, but heck, if you like to pretend that, go for it.

And yes, Bhagavan said that the thought "it's hard" makes it hard. Nonetheless reading that, conceptually understanding that and even accepting that, as I do too, is not changing it. You overlook your actual belief (as in - IT IS HARD! - ) buried in your subconsciousness.

We all go though phases, I was in that phase you are in right now too and I commented the same way feeling righteous and wondering about the "ignorance" of the people who seem to not get it. That has passed - thank God :-)

* said...

Salazar - It sounds to me like you're still in the phase of confusing yourSelf with who you THINK you are. Forget about vasanas, focus on viveka.

. . said...

You crack me up "*" :-)

God bless you my friend and all the best!

* said...

Focus, Salazar! And be quiet. You have to be quiet to recognize Stillness. : )

tapas said...

Salazar,
like you I too feel *'s comments as a bit schoolmasterly, gurulike or smart aleck/boastful.
As you admit you formerly commented the same way feeling righteous...
About what do you now wonder ?

tapas said...

Sanjay,
thanks for your summary.

Kumarila said...

*,
you better shut up and maintain silence.

Diogenes said...

"How hard is it to be where I am?”
Certainly it is hard to visit a brothel and abstain there from having any sexual desire or thought.

. . said...

tapas, you asked me “about what I now wonder”.

If anything I marvel about Bhagavan’s mysterious ways and I am immensely grateful to him or what he really represents, Self. I hope he’ll consume/kill me soon ….

tapas said...

Salazar,
an apple will fall down from the tree not earlier than it is ripe enough.
Knowing one's real self soon - that is our yearning.
Your sincer 'immense' gratitude to him will certainly stimulate Bhagavan's appetite for you. Do not spoil it by any impatience.
It is also my hope that when getting consumed by him, "what he really represents" will also be revealed to our then remaining awareness.
As you said to *, God bless you my friend and all the best!

* said...

Diogenes - most likely, sexual desire was the reason for the visit to a brothel, but that's beside the point.

“Whatever is destined not to happen will not happen, try as you may. Whatever is destined to happen will happen, do what you may to prevent it. This is certain. The best course, therefore, is to remain silent.” - Ramana

In other words, a visit to a brothel (or to a temple, for that matter), as well as the thoughts that led to that action, would have been predestined. You could not have prevented them. Therefore, whether you happen to be in a brothel, in a temple, or at your computer, be the silence, the stillness that is never other than where or who you are. That is 'the best course'.

* said...

By the way, Bhagavan does not represent the Self, Bhagavan IS the Self, another name for which is Stillness. To show your love or gratitude to Bhagavan, be one with Bhagavan. Be Still.

source researcher said...

*,
"By the way, Bhagavan does not ..., Bhagavan IS the Self, another name for which is Stillness."
Do you know it from own experience or did you copy that statement from somebody ?

Diogenes said...

*,
"The best course, therefore, is to remain silent.”
There is no disputing that "Remaining silent" is the best prescription.
What is the best course (of treatment) if one cannot remain silent because of his unability to be aware of his own stillness due of vasanas ?

* said...

Diogenes - the best course is always to turn from, 'I cannot, due to this or that', to silence. That is the practice. It's never more complicated than that. Perseverance and patience...in equal amounts.

* said...

source researcher - I think I read it somewhere.

Diogenes said...

*,
what is the second best course ?

source researcher said...

*,
where ever you read it the author of that script or book has apparently copied of somebody. Or perhaps..., if he actually did report from own experience we should ask him to tell us further details.

source researcher said...

How does it feel just pure self-awareness ?
Is it other than conscious awareness of one's own plain existence ?

Anonymous said...

Talk 28

D.: What is the relation between my free-will and the overwhelming
might of the Omnipotent?

(a) Is omniscience of God consistent with ego’s freewill?
(b) Is omnipotence of God consistent with ego’s freewill?
(c) Are the natural laws consistent with God’s free-will?
M.: Yes. Free-will is the present appearing to a limited faculty of
sight and will. The same ego sees its past activity as falling into a
course of ‘law’ or rules - its own free-will being one of the links
in that course of law.
Omnipotence and omniscience of God are then seen by the ego to
have acted through the appearance of his own free-will. So he comes
to the conclusion that the ego must go by appearances.
Natural laws
are manifestations of God’s will and they have been laid down.

here and now said...

Anonymous,
I am happy to hear that also God has a free-will.
So what shall I do now with my free will ?
What means the clause "...that the ego must go by appearances." ?
Please give some explanatory note .

Anonymous said...

Here and now:

Bhagavad-Gita, Chapter 9.

9.11 describes Maharishi Ramana.

Best regards.

* said...

Diogenes - there is no second best course. It's the best or nothing. You have come to the point in the dream where you now know you have a choice. You can separate yourself from it and wake up, or keep dreaming.

* said...

source researcher - pure self-awareness, which is the same as 'conscious awareness of one's own plain existence', is peace.

source researcher said...

*,
peace is good, but where am I there as the experiencer of peace ?
Peace of which I am not aware is like an empty no man's land.

* said...

source researcher - peace is neither good or bad. Peace is peace, which is why it's peace. To experience peace 'I' must BE peace. When 'I' is still, 'I' is peace.

sat-chit-ananda / being-awareness-peace / I-I-I

Diogenes said...

*,
thanks for your consultation. I will try my best.

source researcher said...

*,
I leave you now in peace and try to be at peace with myself.
Kind regards.

Sanjay Lohia said...

We want to perpetuate our dream; we are so attached to our dream. We loved our parents, and we want to cherish their memories through all these rituals such as sraddha. So we like the idea that they continue to exist. They do continue to exist as ourself. If we really want to have contact with our parents we should return to our source, which is from where we came and from where everything else came also.

~ Edited transcript of a portion of Michael’s video dated April 24, 2016

My note: Everything comes from ourself, because our mind rises from ourself, and everything else comes only because we rise at this ego. So everything directly or indirectly comes only from ourself. Not only that, whatever exists exists only within ourself, because we the infinite, unbroken awareness, and therefore nothing can exist independent of or outside of us.

For instance, my father passed away about two years back, but where did that person exist when he was alive? He existed is ourself. And suppose if he has taken another birth - that is, if he is dreaming another dream - where does this new person also exist? It exists again only in ourself.

So whatever comes comes from ourself, and whatever is dissolved dissolves only in ourself. To conclude, nothing exists outside of ourself at any given time.

Purification of mind does NOT reflect on one’s outward behavior, a purified mind is no mind and any perceived behavior is illusion said...

I have a contribution to the recent Mouna/venkat discussion. It is from Padamalai, page 169, and it starts with a quote from GVK:

”GVK, verse 62: He who has known the world appearance – an association that comprises the five sense perceptions – as his own Self, the consciousness that is the supreme, knows and experiences the same swarupa through his five senses as well.
Vilakkam: This verse explains the little-known fact that the sahaja state is experienced even in external perceptions. For him who truly knows sense perceptions to be his own Self, the world is not an obstacle. He experiences and enjoys his own Self in all perceptions and rejoices identically both internally and externally, without even a trace of the thought of bondage.”

My comment: According to this the world does not disappear for the Jivanmukta, furthermore he is aware of his surroundings and body through sense perceptions.
However, in order to arrive there we need to exclude initially everything what is not Self through atma-vichara. Once the sahaja state is experienced (please no smart comments about that there is no state or experiencer, we know) then paradoxically the phenomenal world is still perceived, however not in the fragmented way of an ajnani with the distinctions of the various objects.

But as I said before, that is hard to comprehend for the mind since that goes beyond what mind could possibly grasp. As such it will be only finally clear when directly experienced.

padam said...

Sanjay Lohia,
so Michael does not think much of the existence of a life hereafter.
It is funny, three hours ago I tried to have contact with my late mother by so-called spiritual media. However, because of the limited spiritual experience and insight of the media the performed revelation and the conveyed message were not enough convincing for me.

Sanjay Lohia said...

Padam, it is not very clear what you mean when you write: ‘so Michael does not think much of the existence of a life hereafter’. It depends on what you mean by the term ‘life’. If by ‘life’ you mean a ‘body’, then obviously there is no life hereafter for the body, because once it is dead, it goes forever. If by ‘life’ you mean ‘atma-svarupa’, then again there is no hereafter, because there is no birth and death for our svarupa. However, if by ‘life’ you mean ‘the ego’, then there is a life hereafter for this ego (if it is not annihilated before or at the time of body’s death).

So you have to clearly define the term ‘life’ and chose the answer to your question from the three options given above.

About the use of spiritual media and other such practices, we should try and avoid indulging in such acts, because if we do so we will be taking interest in unnecessary things. Our outward life is already destined by Bhagavan, and we cannot change it by any means, so how can guidance received through any spiritual media help us? These are just gimmicks which should be clearly avoided.

Even suppose we are able to contact our dead relatives or whoever through some media, how will it help both of us? We will not be able to remove our self-ignorance or even solve our worldly problems received through some supernatural means, and nor will it benefit the person we are trying to contact. If our dead relatives still exist somewhere as individuals, they are just like us, and therefore they are not one with God. So how can any other individual change our destiny? However, if our ancestors have merged with God, how can we contact them as separate entities? Why not pray to God and seek his direct guidance.

Sanjay Lohia said...

Devotee: There is so much beauty in nature – flowers, rivers, mountains… Should we just ignore such beautiful sights if we are practising atma-vichara?

Michael: OK, who sees it as beauty? Where do they say beauty lies: in the eye of the beholder. So who is the beholder? If you want to find the source of all beauty, you have to look at the beholder. The beholder is the ego. If you look at the ego, it disappears. What remains is the ultimate beauty, which is what you really are.

Any beauty we see outside is the beauty we project from within. So the source of all beauty comes from within us. So if you want to find infinite beauty, you have to find it in yourself. Whatever beauty we find outside is finite. No beautiful experience will last forever.

# Edited transcript from a portion of Michael’s video dated April 24, 2016

My note: Every beautiful flower with wither one day. Every beautiful and attractive woman (or man) will become old and unattractive one day. Shiva is the only real beauty, and shiva is what we really are. That is why it is said: satyam-shivam-sundaram. That is, what actually exists is shiva, and only shiva is beautiful. This is clearly implied in the saying satyam-shivam-sundaram.

Sanjay Lohia said...

Most of the questions we ask are not necessary. If you read books like Talks, people are asking Bhagavan so many questions. 99% of them are completely unnecessary. If we understand the basic principles of Bhagavan’s teachings, almost all questions go out of the window.

All comes down to the basic question: who am I? That’s the only meaningful question ultimately.

# Edited transcript from a portion of Michael’s video dated April 24, 2016

My note: I have also asked Michael unending number of questions during last 5 to 6 years. I am sure many of these questions were irrelevant. However, it is all a process of growing up, a process of deepening the understanding.

However, as Michael says, ‘If we understand the basic principles of Bhagavan’s teachings, almost all questions go out of the window. All comes down to the basic question: who am I? That’s the only meaningful question ultimately’. I couldn’t agree with him more.


venkat said...

Salazar - thanks for the reference.

I was also doing my manana this morning, and I think the salient point is Bhagavan's definition of reality - that which exists always, without interruption and independently of all else. Only consciousness / Self fulfils this definition. The ego and the world clearly do not and therefore cannot be real. And of that which is not real, it is meaningless to talk about creation and destruction - ie ajata vada.

Muruganar's commentary on v.15 of Aksharamanamalai (which is very akin to the Brhadaranyaka Up's "how can one know the knower?, which I quoted in an earlier comment to Carlos), further elaborates on Salazar's Padamalai / GVK reference:

"True seeing is another wondrous kind of seeing unlike the differentiated vision, based on mental imagination, in which we perceive in terms of the triad seer, sight and thing seen. It is for this reason that it is termed 'seeing without seeing'. In the state of Supreme Reality, Arunachala, the pure consciousness of the Self, exists as himself alone, with nothing else whatsoever. However through mental imagination, phenomenon, apparently real [see above], but existing only in appearance, are perceived by the ego-self, in which the pure consciousness of the Self is reflected. Thus that wondrous seeing, in which He sees without seeing, is simply Himself, enduring and shining as all those phenomena, which are merely unreal appearances superimposed upon Him. For those who have realised the Truth, like our teacher Bhagavan, this alone is accepted as the ultimate state of omniscience.
It should be realised that that which witnesses the jiva . . . is only Arunachala. Just as the eye can know that which is seen, but that which is seen cannot know the eye that sees it, the witness can know the jiva, but the jiva cannot know the witness."

I also came across this in Lakshmana Sarma's Maha Yoga:
"We have seen before that the Sage is in the Natural State - in Sahaja Samadhi - always. This is not as we have seen the Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi of the yogi which is inconstant. This Natural State is not inimical to the automatic bodily activities which are attributed to the Sage [Me: though the Sage himself has not such attribution]. So it may be said, in a sense, that the Sage is awake to the Self and to the world also [Me: perhaps this is what Bhagavan meant by waking sleep]. He seems to eat, sleep and live like other persons. Because he is in the Sahaja state [unlike the Yogi or the deep sleep state] he is able to hear and answer questions [me: though it is not his ego that is answering questions, but Arunachala]."

venkat said...

In Maharshi's Gospel, Bhagavan himself responds to a question, which is very much in line with the commentaries of Muruganar and Lakshmana Sarma:

M: You talk of seeing and knowing the world. But without knowing yourself, the knowing subject, (without whom there is no knowledge of the object), how can you know the true nature of the world, the known object? No doubt, the objects affect the body and the sense organs, but is it to your body that the question arises? Does the body say “I feel the object, it is real”? Or is it the world that says to you “I, the world, am real”?

D: I am only trying to understand the jnani’s point of view about the world. Is the world perceived after Self-realization?

M: WHY WORRY YOURSELF ABOUT THE WORLD AND WHAT HAPPENS TO IT AFTER SELF-REALIZATION? FIRST REALISE THE SELF. WHAT DOES IT MATTER IF THE WORLD IS PERCEIVED OR NOT. DO YOU GAIN ANYTHING TO HELP YOU IN YOUR QUEST BY THE NON-PERCEPTION OF THE WORLD DURING SLEEP? CONVERSELY, WHAT WOULD YOU LOSE NOW BY THE PERCEPTION OF THE WORLD? IT IS QUITE IMMATERIAL TO THE JNANI OR AJNANI IF HE PERCEIVES THE WORLD OR NOT. IT IS SEEN BY BOTH, BUT THEIR VIEWPOINTS DIFFER.

D: If the jnani and the ajnani perceive the world in like manner, where is the difference between them?

M: Seeing the world, the jnani sees the Self which is the substratum of all that is seen; the ajnani, whether he sees the world or not, is ignorant of his true Being, the Self.

Sanjay Lohia said...

Padam, I wrote in my previous comment addressed to you: ‘If by ‘life’ you mean ‘atma-svarupa’, then again there is no hereafter, because there is no birth and death for our svarupa’. I think I did not make myself very clear when I wrote this. Our atma-svarupa has never come into existence, and it will never cease to exist in future. It just is. Therefore, in that sense, it will have a thereafter.

John C said...

Hi Salazar & Venkat

The discussion about whether the world vanishes or remains after we experience ourself as we really are is often brought up here.

However just to keep some balance.

Here is a Paragraph Three from Nan Yar?.

If the mind, which is the cause of all [dualistic, relative or objective] knowledge and of all activity, subsides [becomes still, disappears or ceases to exist] jagad-dṛṣṭi [perception of the world] will cease. Just as knowledge of the rope, which is the base [that underlies and supports the imaginary appearance of a snake], will not arise unless knowledge of the imaginary snake ceases, svarūpa-darśana [true experiential knowledge of our own actual nature or real self], which is the base [that underlies and supports the imaginary appearance of this world], will not arise unless perception of the world, which is an imagination [or fabrication], ceases.

I personally believe when I experience myself as I really am perception of the world will cease but I can't be 100% sure and am not turning it into a fact.

Salazar from someone who believes everything is pre ordained and there is no free will apart from turning within or outwards I am a bit surprised you would believe this? I would have had you down the other way.

Anyway I think we will agree the most important thing is vichara, it is the solution to all questions we may have.

John.

padam said...

Sanjay Lohia,
without any doubt I mean the ego's life hereafter.
Because I do not assume that all the vasanas of my then mother were annihilated at the time of her death, so evidently the ego survived in some form of energy. One cannot seriously assume that the souls of dead persons disappear in a kind of black hole. One cannot accept one's complete ignorance about the present wherabouts of particularly beloved late relatives. Out of sheer inquisitiveness I want to know in which form the ego of my late relative do now exist. Having a certain minimum degree of knowledge about the ego's life hereafter is as popular demand so old as humanity itself.
You ask "so how can guidance received through any spiritual media help us? These are just gimmicks which should be clearly avoided."
I do not have such expectation and therefore do not take any "guidance" of a spiritual medium into consideration.

Addressed to all of the forum,
I want to know also:
1. what the ordainer has destined generally for the dead persons,
2. whether any of the five sheeths of the former body continues to exist,
3. whether dead persons keep their former life/lives with all their then experiences of family life in clear memory,
4. whether they take with them all their worries, fears, hopes, interests, likes and dislikes, attachments etc...
5. whether they have the possibilitiy to develope their spiritual ripeness...
6. whether there is something what is called in thesophy or anthroposophy of Rudolf Steiner, H.P.Blavatsky, Annie Bessant, C.W.Leadbeater, Alice A.Bailey...

padam said...

Sanjay Lohia,
what never came into existence can consequential have neither a 'therebefore' nor a 'thereafter'.

venkat said...

Hi John

You quote the key para of Nan Yar. And even in Maha Yoga and Muruganar's writing, there are a number of passages which state that with the destruction of the mind, the perception of the world also ceases.

However Bhagavan et al have also made statements along the lines that it is the subject-object differentiation, the likes / dislikes, the very interest in the world that ceases. It could be argued that these interpretations are given to those who can't accept that the world 'disappears'. Perhaps. But for Muruganar and others to write in their own commentaries and poetry this interpretation, when such commentaries were not aimed at anyone in particular, seems to me a doubtful explanation of why they referred to seeing the world as their own swarupa. It seems more likely that Bhagavan and others were making the point that our perception of the world is so significantly impacted by our conditioning, by our ego, that on destruction of this ego, the way we normally perceive is totally destroyed. This is what I think Muruganar means by 'seeing without seeing'; seeing without the subject / object distinction.

The point I think, is that the perception may continue but there is no one there to register and respond to that perception, because there is no one. Here is a thought experiment: think of how it would be to go through life, without for a moment registering likes/dislikes, fears / desires, etc. Essentially going through life without the continual mental chatter and affectation that occupies 99% of our time; accepting what comes, and accepting what goes, with total, utter, unpremeditated detachment. Not caring whether you live or die. Is that not mauna? Is that not the waking sleep, the turiya, that the sages have all talked of?

In any event, as you have concluded, we cannot know until we get there, and in the meantime all that we really need concern ourselves with is vichara. To re-quote Bhagavan in Maharshi's Gospel (which according to David Godman, he reviewed and corrected):

"Why worry yourself about the world and what happens to it after self-realization? First realise the self. What does it matter if the world is perceived or not?"

Sanjay Lohia said...

Padam, you write: ‘Because I do not assume that all the vasanas of my then mother were annihilated at the time of her death, so evidently the ego survived in some form of energy. One cannot seriously assume that the souls of dead persons disappear in a kind of black hole’. Yes, as long as our karma-vasanas and vishaya-vasanas last, we will continue to exist as the ego. However, according to Bhagavan’s teachings, this ego does not survive as some form of energy, as you seem to suggest. We may read verse 25 of Ulladu Narpadu at this point:

Grasping form the formless phantom-ego comes into existence; grasping form it stands; grasping and feeding on form it grows abundantly; leaving form, it grasps form. If it seeks, it will take flight. Investigate.

So if at all your mother still exists as an ego, she must have grasped some other body in order to continue to exist, because without grasping a body as itself no ego can exist.
If we are inquisitive about the present whereabouts about our dead relatives, and believe that they continue to exist somewhere and that we can still communicate with them, we are indulging in anatma-vichara (investigating what is not ‘I’). Bhagavan has asked us to stick to only atma-vichara (self-investigation). Wherever our dead ancestors may be, Bhagavan is taking care of them according to their prarabdha.

As Michael explained in one his recent articles, a child up to about 6 years can have some vague memories about their previous life, but this is in rare cases. In any case, as they grow older and develop as a person, their connection with their previous life is totally cut off.

You ask: ‘whether they [the dead ones] take with them all their worries, fears, hopes, interests, likes and dislikes, attachments etc...’. They just carry with them their vishaya-vasanas, and these vasanas may consist of their previous likes, dislikes, interests and so on. We see many child prodigies; obviously their skills in their previous lives get transferred to their current life.

Yes, every ego has the possibility and capability to advance spirituality from moment to moment. This capability is part of our will.

Purification of mind does NOT reflect on one’s outward behavior, a purified mind is no mind and any perceived behavior is illusion said...

Hi John C, thank you for your input. I am not sure why you are surprised regarding the belief that everything is preordained. I do not believe that this is conflicting with my previous comment, if so let me know how. By the way, that is also what Bhagavan stated on multiple occasions, and Sanjay Lohia posted several comments about destiny which I agreed with.

Is it really so hard to accept that Bhagavan conveyed that truth? That we have only one choice (as in free will) and that is to either turn within or outwards? That all of the actions of the body are preordained. Frankly, I am amazed that many people here cannot accept that.

Of course the wisest suggestion regarding free will and destiny comes from Bhagavan who said to look who has free will or destiny and with that to transcend both notions.

I find it immensely helpful because if you can really accept it, and that what cannot accept it is of course the ego who likes to believe it could decide anything – (yeah right :-), then one can relax and not worry if one makes a correct or wrong decision, that decision was already decided, so why worry? The concern and worry is all part of Maya. Better instead to turn within and not identify with any “decisions”.

Anyway, many think because Bhagavan gave advice to people what to do and how to behave and that would indicate people actually could do that and is proof that there is that much free will. But that is wrong, Bhagavan (in his body) played as much a role as everybody else. His suggestion might create the desire or intention of the mind to do so but if that really transpires is solely dependent on karma. However, and here is where free will (besides turning within or outwards) kicks in, if the devotee hears Bhagavan's advice and wants to do it but his prarabdha karma does not allow it, the desire of the devotee's mind (as in free will) creates new karma which has to be fulfilled at some later point. So eventually that devotee WILL follow that advice, but then it has become prarabdha karma.

That's why sages give advice, they look at the long-haul, meaning looking on hundreds of future lives and they know that their advice, even if it cannot sprout in the current life time, will manifest at some future life.

cherry red hoopoe said...

Sanjay Lohia,
yesterday you conclude " nothing exists outside of ourself at any given time."
and today you write in a reply to padam "If our dead relatives still exist somewhere as individuals, they are just like us, and therefore they are not one with God."

If you suppose that nothing exists outside of ourself at any given time why do you claim on the otgher hand that "dead relatives are not one with God" ?
Is it not said that our real nature is nothing other than God ?
Evidently you got entangled in contradictions.

padam said...

addressed to all of the forum,
sorry, in my 6 th question I forgot to add the term "akashic records" used in theosophy/anthroposophy.

padam said...

Sanjay Lohia, thanks for your reply.
Regarding anatma-vichara,
because I am not in the lucky position to stick incessantly to atma-vichara in the mean time I naturally indulge in the mind's thirst of knowledge.

Arjuna said...

Sanjay Lohia,
yes, infinite or ultimate beauty we can and will certainly find only in ourself.
Nevertheless, as long as the ego has not taken flight for ever and ever it will not be to our disadvantage when we enjoy the beauty and peace in nature. In defiance of hearing everyday that only shiva actually exists and the self alone is eternal: Having our enjoyment of nature will not damage our ability to pursue self-investigation.


Mouna said...

Venkat and Salazar, greetings

With a little extra time on my hands I would like to comment on some of your previous commentaries about what happens after manonasa as per my understanding (for what is worth!) It ismore a comment for me myself to try to put my concepts in order than to debate the topic.
First of all I do fully agree to the conclusions we all came that is better to wait until ego dissolves to have an experiential input on the mater, no question about it.
But still it doesn’t hurt, in the meanwhile, to ventilate our understanding about the teachings (Bhagavan’s and Advaita Vedanta’s) in order to expose them to scrutiny by devotees and thinkers that might be very much ahead in the path and the practice.

Talking about the Upanishads and Vedas in general, we all know (and I suppose agree) on the fact that Vedanta is a systematic and comprehensive teaching with an organic learning curve (we can’t skip stages) where the different steps one take to get the knowledge are in function of the level that the aspirant found him/herself at a certain moment. A good example of this is to say that Brahman is the witness or knower (Br. Up.), that in itself at one stage it makes perfect sense for the aspirant immersed in phenomena, giving reality to the external world and the internal thoughts. By stating that awareness (Brahman) is not this, or not that, one learns to discriminate between sat and asat, atma and anatman, establising the aspirant in the witnessing consciousness separate from thoughts, sensations, feelings and perceptions (phenomena). In a certain way, this has a quota of truth in itself, providing the ground for the next level of understanding, which is that consciousness (Brahman) actually permeates all phenomena like gold permeates bangles, chains and rings made of gold. I understand this level as being the knowledge of seeing brahman in all beings (including myself of course), non-duality including duality, Ishwara (or Saguna Brahman) and its power Maya being one.
At the end of the spectrum (figuratively speaking), beyond mind and maya, lies Brahman, the Nirguna one, without attributes, not having even a Maya to delude, veil, or project… this is the realm that mind cannot fathom without getting into paradoxical concepts and useless arguments. Silence.

(continues in next commentary)

Mouna said...

(continues from previous commentary)

Now, within this illusory motus operandi called ego, we do have some pointers for the different levels of reality experienced, that although in themselves part of the dream, they give us clues of what could be more or less closer to the real knowledge (like a friend of mine used to say, lies that point in the right direction). The waking level points to the complete duality of sorts, the srishti-drishti vada, me and everything else, the vyavaharic transactional and functional daily “reality” of me in this world that gave me birth.
The dreaming world already points to the non-dual understanding in the sense that is easily verifiable that our dreams, although presenting a diversified world in itself is the product of a single mind, ours, that penetrates all corners and aspects of those dreamy phenomena. It is the vivarta vada (drishti-shristi), the pratibashika reality, the veiling and projecting power of my mind creating universes with different time ans space than the one the waker experiences.
Dreamless sleep provides the key to understand what reality without ego could look like, since the ego rises and withdraws always with phenomena, except in the case of deep dreamless sleep. This is what I understand as non-born, etc (ajata), paramartika “reality”.

I don’t think this is rocket science, nor I claim to have discovered a new upanishad, this is something that can be verified by anyone, learned or not. So from here we can draw our own conclusions. I am not very good (and knowledgeable) as to quote what I read, and very lazy to google quotes to support my point of view. It is a simplistic view, but it works for me and matches the different quotes and teachings I read from Bhagavan and other sages, even allowing me to see at what and from what level their are speaking.

As I said before, being part of a different forum (Advaita-L and Advaitin list) for many years when I started incurring in the Advaita Vedanta world, I saw this discussion about the destruction of mind unfold many many times, and each time creating two different “camps”, I don’t think I ever saw a definite conclusion that satisfied everyone…

So friends, this is where I’ coming from, trying to base the reading in my own experiential nature of this dream where all of us are characters playing a role.

Thanks, be well
Mouna (Salazar) / Carlos (for Venkat)

paramarthika satya said...

Mouna/Carlos, greetings,
correct Latin is 'modus operandi'.
Be well
J

Mouna said...

Thank you J.
M

Sanjay Lohia said...

Michael recently posted two video on his YouTube channel: Sri Ramana Teachings. One of these is titled: 2018-03-19 Conscious TV interview with Michael James: The Real Behind All Appearances. The following comment by one Mae Rik was made in the comment section of this video. I reproduce below this comment and its answer by Michael:

Mae Rik: Yes Michael I used to think as a child people only appeared when I thought of them.

Michael: Yes, Mae, perhaps the world seems less convincingly real to us when we are small children because we are less strongly attached to our current identity, but as we become more familiar with being the person we now seem to be and consequently more attached to this identity, it becomes more difficult for us to doubt the reality of this world appearance.

The more convinced we are that this body is 'I', the more convincingly real this world seems to be, because what is actually real is only 'I', our fundamental self-awareness, so if this body is 'I', it must be real, and since it is part of this world, this world must also be real. So the sense of reality (satya-buddhi) we experience with regard to the world derives from the actual reality of 'I' combined with our strong identification with this body.

(I will continue this in my next comment)

Sanjay Lohia said...

My note: So in our spiritual journey, we have to now go backwards: that is, we need to try to again become like children, and if we have already become like children, we need to now try to become like a one-month-old infant, and even try to progress further until we become nothing. So our car should now travel in back gear, as it were.

I believe Jesus said, ‘Let the children come to me. Don't stop them! For the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to those who are like these children’. (Matthew 19:14) So if we want to enter the kingdom of heaven, which in terms of Bhagavan’s teachings means, if we want to experience ourself as we actually are, we need to become like small babies. What is the state of a small infant? Its ego has not yet sprouted or has not yet become too strong. However, currently our egos our fat and strong, and therefore we need to make it weak and to destroy it ultimately.

This world seems to be so real only because we seem to be so real. If our reality starts to fade, this world’s reality will also start to fade. And if we disappear, this world, which is causing us so much fear, will also disappear along with us.

One more advantage of becoming a baby is that if we become one, we are no longer responsible for ourself – our mother will take care of all our needs. Likewise, Bhagavan will completely take care of all our bodily needs if we return to our babyhood. Why not enjoy a carefree life of a one-month-old infant?

How can we become like an infant? Self-investigation is the only means to destroy our ego, and therefore the only effective and sure means to become like an infant.


kalpana-sakti said...

Sanjay Lohia,
the relatively weak ego of a small baby is only the one side of the coin.
The life of an infant is generally neither carefree nor free from suffering. Not for nothing is the necessity of child protection legislation. So your desire to become again an infant is rather difficult to comprehend.

kalpana-sakti said...

Sanjay Lohia,
are you the same Sanjay Lohia who compiled the small booklet 'Bhakti Marga and Yoga Marga in Bhagavan Ramana's own words', published by RMCfL Bangalore,(which I bought about ten years ago in the bookshop of Sri Ramanasramam)?

. . said...

Sanjay Lohia, it is pretty funny (for me) that a Hindu is quoting the New Testament. You interpreted that quote in a way you believe it could/would fit. I can find you at least 10 different interpretations for that particular quote. Also, from which version of the Bible is it coming from? Depending on the version that quote could be quite different...

No need to tell me though, my point is that the New Testament is a poor source and in most cases not reflecting the teachings of Jesus.

Good golly, there are already discussions about Bhagavan's teachings where the authenticity of (parts of) certain texts (i.e. the Talks) is questioned and our very own Michael gives it great importance to focus on certain texts only. And that just after 7o years of Bhagavan's passing.

The New testament was written 300 years after Jesus' passing, and in the following 1,700 years there have been many revisions by the Catholic Church, selecting material which they judged for appropriate and omitting other material which did not fit in their particular viewpoint. The Bible has 50,000 text variations! Not very confidence inspiring.

The Gospel of Thomas (not accepted by the Church) is probably the closest to the actual teachings of Jesus, it has many non-dual notions, that's probably why it is considered as heretic :-)


Sanjay Lohia said...

Kalpana-Sakti, why do we have so many problems and concerns at present? Why do we experience an unending cycle pain and pleasure? It is only because we experience ourself as this ego and consequently experience this world to be real. However, in sleep, we have no problems, no pains and pleasures. Why? Because there is no ego is sleep.

However, after a hard day’s work, we may be too tired and may therefore lie in our bed to go to sleep. Just before sleeping our ego is relatively weak, because we start losing our grip on our body. Since we are less attached to our ego at that time, our worldly concerns and our pleasures and pains also start losing its grip on us.

So this is what a weak ego does to us? It reduces our problems, at least for the time being. The same thing happens when we are an infant. Since at that time our ego has not yet fully developed, our concerns are negligible. We are not concerned, for example, about wars around us or about poverty or such matters. We are happy if we are given milk in time. As adults, we generally have strong egos, and as babies, we have a relatively weak ego. The stronger our ego, the greater is our attachments and desires, and therefore greater are all our troubles.

Bhagavan used to say that our aim is to become like infants. This is, however, an analogy, because even a new-born infant may have an ego, although it is extremely weak, but the jnani has absolutely no ego.

Yes, I had compiled the booklet: ‘Bhakti Marga and Yoga Marga in Bhagavan Ramana's own words'.


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