tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post6162910735575024553..comments2023-10-16T13:06:42.360+01:00Comments on Happiness of Being: The Teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi: Why is it necessary to be attentively self-aware, rather than just not aware of anything else?Michael Jameshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03460943269122289281noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-31016200953227691612016-11-12T20:00:28.956+00:002016-11-12T20:00:28.956+00:00Daisilui,
You yourself wrote:
"And part of t...Daisilui,<br /><br />You yourself wrote:<br />"And part of that 'to do' stuff is getting a mind shift in understanding all this at an intellectual level in parallel with persevering in the practice of silence."<br /><br />I'm not sure what you mean by "a mind shift", but I would say that without intellectual understanding, one would not do Self-Enquiry at all.<br /><br />And again, I am not talking on the Absolute level.<br /><br />The ego is actually the mistake of thinking that the Self is not there on the relative level (as explained by the Foolish Tenth Man analogy, or the Triangular Room analogy, or the analogy of someone trying to find his sunglasses that are on top of his head).Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08444422146838072196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-46599018023706603522016-11-12T15:58:37.484+00:002016-11-12T15:58:37.484+00:00Ken,
how can you preach the absolute truth while b...Ken,<br />how can you preach the absolute truth while being engaged in this dialogue?! Doesn't this feel false to you? Aren't you grasping form when your mind is in this dogmatic mood of reproducing quotes and the 'letter' of Advaita? Isn't that ego? As Matthew wondered- what purpose do this kind of debates serve/ what are they doing for you other than exciting the mind in proving right from wrong and doing so, strengthening the ego?! Sorry, if you don't see this but i am not interested in engaging in theory and fruitless debates more than necessary. To me this is not leading to the stillness you bring into discussion, quoting Ramana... Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03098205640361255053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-1309230773131720802016-11-12T14:31:15.178+00:002016-11-12T14:31:15.178+00:00Ken,
on the "relative level" - you are c...Ken,<br />on the "relative level" - you are considering obviously the "level" of this ego in relation to the self - the ego seems to exist pretty well, albeit it does not actually exist.cidakasanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-48433006193613454202016-11-12T07:36:21.316+00:002016-11-12T07:36:21.316+00:00Daisilui -
I think you are mixing levels.
On th...Daisilui - <br /><br />I think you are mixing levels.<br /><br />On the relative level, the ego does not actually exist. It is just a concept, a mistake.<br /><br />That is what the "tenth man" story is all about.<br /><br />You say;<br /><br />"as long as there is a seeker, there is an ego, a world and a body and there's stuff to do."<br /><br />and that is not the Advaita Vedanta viewpoint, even on the relative level (at least about there being an ego).<br /><br />Like the tenth man, the Self is there right now, part of every moment of your life.<br /><br />Ramana agreed that "be still" was another way to state the teaching.<br /><br />The Neo-Advaita statement 'nothing exists, there's nothing to do' is not stated by Ramana or Shankara. It's a misunderstanding that does involve mixing the Absolute and Relative. But Ramana does not do that, and the Self is always there for everyone on the relative level, and the ego is actually not.<br /><br />In fact, the ego is actually the mistake of thinking that the Self is not there on the relative level.Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08444422146838072196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-47570634949221046632016-11-12T05:22:07.315+00:002016-11-12T05:22:07.315+00:00Ken:
"It's worth noting that Ramana says ...Ken:<br />"It's worth noting that Ramana says in the above (and many other places) that the insentient body cannot know the Self."<br />as you probably know, Ramana said the above in many other places, as you mention but not in one place, i.e. he tailored his speech to the needs and level of understanding of each of the disciple; he only spoke from the point of view of the absolute to those who had the capacity and maturity to understand it. <br />Indeed it is false to speak of ego and of realization; in the end is false to speak of anything- as i said, words lead nowhere but when we chose to get entangled in words than you cannot at the same time say 'nothing exist, there's nothing to do'. This is even falser... as long as there is a seeker, there is an ego, a world and a body and there's stuff to do. And part of that 'to do' stuff is getting a mind shift in understanding all this at an intellectual level in parallel with persevering in the practice of silence. That is what my reply to Matthew [and clarification to myself as why i choose to get entangled in words from time to time] was all about.Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03098205640361255053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-58668031648462302016-11-11T21:52:46.356+00:002016-11-11T21:52:46.356+00:00Ken,
your mentioned examples may be an entertainin...Ken,<br />your mentioned examples may be an entertaining digression into the world of zoology, but ignore my question about the meaning of the "insentient body" in the sense as Sri Ramana has used this term. No matter. Regards.<br />ordalenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-80839847469172362132016-11-11T20:39:48.044+00:002016-11-11T20:39:48.044+00:00Ordale -
The answer to your question is what Adv...Ordale - <br /><br />The answer to your question is what Advaita Vedanta is about.<br /><br />For example:<br /><br />Suppose there is a mouse and a bunch of grapes sitting on the grass lawn.<br /><br />If one has not eaten recently, one will have a feeling of appetite directed at the grapes.<br /><br />Your cat will have a feeling of appetite directed at the mouse.<br /><br />A cow walking up will have a feeling of appetite directed at the grass.<br /><br />Thus, those feelings are generated by the physical body.<br /><br />Almost all human beings have an instinctive fear of snakes and spiders. This emotion of fear is in our genes. The cat next to us has no such fear of spiders.<br /><br />Similarly, the thoughts in our head are in whatever language was taught to us by our parents. For that reason, some read this site in English, while others use Google Translate. They think of something to post, write it down and then have it translated, since this site is in English.<br /><br />When the body dies, it is the same cells, but suddenly has no sentience. When you look at a corpse, you can see that it is insentient. So, the "sentience" is something that is no longer there.Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08444422146838072196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-25056126441219329912016-11-11T18:53:26.419+00:002016-11-11T18:53:26.419+00:00Ken,
the adjective "insentient" means us...Ken,<br />the adjective "insentient" means usually: imperceptible, unconscious, unaware, deprived of sensation, emotionless, incapable of feeling or understanding things, without one's mental faculties, inanimate. <br />Why should then the insentient body include all of thoughts, memories, sense perceptions, feelings of all types, including emotions and intuitions ?ordalenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-22110603528224246292016-11-11T17:53:48.374+00:002016-11-11T17:53:48.374+00:00Daisilui,
Ramana Maharshi stated:
"It is fa...Daisilui,<br /><br />Ramana Maharshi stated:<br /><br />"It is false to speak of realisation. What is there to realise? The real is as it is always. We are not creating anything new or achieving something which we did not have before. The illustration given in books is this. We dig a well and create a huge pit. The space in the pit or well has not been created by us. We have just removed the earth which was filling the space there. The space was there then and is also there now. Similarly we have simply to throw out all the agelong samskaras [innate tendencies] which are inside us. When all of them have been given up, the Self will shine alone."<br /><br />In the world of Advaita Vedanta students, one constantly hears "The ego wants to ... " and "The ego struggles mightily to preserve itself... ". (One recent self-appointed teacher who quotes various departed Advaita sages, bases his entire "teaching" on these concepts.) <b>That is not only nonsense, it is impossible.</b><br /><br />Why? Because the ego does not exist. James Bond, Sherlock Holmes and Luke Skywalker cannot want anything or do anything, because none of them exist.<br /><br />"Q: One has to sublimate the ego-self into the true Self.<br /><br />Ramana: The ego-self does not exist at all.<br /><br />Q: Why does it give us trouble?<br /><br />Ramana: To whom is the trouble? <b>The trouble also is imagined.</b><br /><br />Q: How did the ego arise?<br /><br />Ramana: Ego is not. Otherwise do you admit of two selves?"<br /><br /><i>The following teaching of Ramana may be helpful to clarify the situation:</i><br /><br />"Q: It is cruel of God’s leela [play] to make the knowledge of the Self so hard.<br /><br />Ramana: Knowing the Self is being the Self, and being means existence, one’s own existence. No one denies one’s existence any more than one denies one’s eyes, although one cannot see them. <b>The trouble lies with your desire to objectify the Self, in the same way as you objectify your eyes when you place a mirror before them.</b> You have been so accustomed to objectivity that you have lost the knowledge of yourself, simply because the Self cannot be objectified. <b>Who is to know the Self? Can the insentient body know it?</b> All the time you speak and think of your ‘I’, yet when questioned you deny knowledge of it. You are the Self, yet you ask how to know the Self. Where then is God’s leela and where is its cruelty? Because of this denial of the Self by people the sastras speak of maya, leela, etc."<br /><br />It's worth noting that Ramana says in the above (and many other places) that the insentient body cannot know the Self. The insentient body includes ALL of these:<br /><br />* Thoughts (including any memories and anything verbal)<br />* Sense Perceptions<br />* Feelings of all types, including emotions and intuitions<br /><br />Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08444422146838072196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-70863693954489529102016-11-11T10:54:18.029+00:002016-11-11T10:54:18.029+00:00daisilui,
regarding the up-and-down motions of our...daisilui,<br />regarding the up-and-down motions of our impulses/impetus/initiatives to abide in self-investigation most of us have to fight permanently against the suction of our tendencies being not really beneficial for us. After sever disappointments of our hopes we regularly come back with new motivation for persevering in looking carefully at ourself.ordalenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-16277199182037861262016-11-08T16:57:03.592+00:002016-11-08T16:57:03.592+00:00Matthew L
you touched on a sore point for me. Yes,...Matthew L<br />you touched on a sore point for me. Yes, true- dialogues and words are pointless and would not lead to realizing the Self but why then do i [and you, and others here] choose to leave experiencing the silence of our deep being which we realize is the only valid position to take to any question arising in the mind. If i look at it carefully i can say that because of the game the ego plays by rising and hiding over and over again. <br /><br />There are times when the impulse to get to such a blog or other spiritual activities [reading something, watching, listening to spiritual stuff] is strong, i.e. ego is strong. Ego seems to be more persistent in coming back to grasping forms than in abiding in investigating itself. It feels like the choice of perseverance the ego makes one direction is countered by the choice of persevering on the other direction. It looks like a battle between the ego that wants and the one who doesn't. The ego that wants hopes that by persevering in looking at itself only would one day vanish for good but then loses faith and need to come back to words/dialogues to get a new motivation for persevering. So from this perspective these dialogues are not pointless. With this i guess i got my fill [or spill] in the craving for words, now back to silence...Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03098205640361255053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-7401316676314243972015-12-06T21:06:36.212+00:002015-12-06T21:06:36.212+00:00Its trial and error with meditative methods, consi...Its trial and error with meditative methods, consistently returning to question who it is that questions, followed by who am I. The Maharshi himself said that the rest will be revealed in its due process and time.<br /><br />MDLAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08740087824039978073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-39179020152158962682015-12-06T21:04:17.976+00:002015-12-06T21:04:17.976+00:00These dialogues are pointless. The idea is to read...These dialogues are pointless. The idea is to read the materials provided about the Maharshi and form your own perspective. His prescription, if you will, for self inquiry is quite simple. He also pointed out, by the way, that those less influenced by intellectual concerns, have a better chance of attaining to their own self realization than those plagued by intellectual and often debative thoughts.<br /><br />MDLAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08740087824039978073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-70280008185094745942015-11-11T12:52:54.146+00:002015-11-11T12:52:54.146+00:00"So the opportunity you got now is to continu..."So the opportunity you got now is to continue enquiring 'Who am I' ?-which is devoid/free of thoughts. "<br /><br />Thanks. I would try my best to use the opportunity I am bestowed with - to do self enquiry.<br />R Viswanathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/18066293987969833262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-56782877154213498122015-11-11T09:17:17.237+00:002015-11-11T09:17:17.237+00:00R Viswanathan,
desisting from expecting the next t...R Viswanathan,<br />desisting from expecting the next thought is not inevitably a thought.<br />So the opportunity you got now is to continue enquiring 'Who am I' ?-which is devoid/free of thoughts.Apasthambanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-39541630065111970042015-11-11T08:08:31.817+00:002015-11-11T08:08:31.817+00:00".. you would find it is to 'me'. If ...<br />".. you would find it is to 'me'. If then you enquire 'Who am I ?' the mind gets introverted and the rising thought also subsides. This way the primary I-thought is the focus of your attention - if I am not wrong there."<br /><br />I fully agree. Yes, if, immediately after becoming aware of having immersed in any kind of thought (including that of absence of thoughts) one eqnuires 'to whom did the thought occur?', it could lead one to attend to the primary I-thought. Having said this, I would like to mention about Sri Sadhu Om remarking in his Tamil book Sri Ramana Vazhi (p 128-129) that one should hold on to the resulting I-feeling or I-sense (from such an enquiry) and dive inwards further and further, and desist from the practice of expecting the arrival of the next thought so that one can get an opportunity to begin to enquire again "to whom the thought has come". <br /><br />R Viswanathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/18066293987969833262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-80094613491800884072015-11-10T15:49:23.066+00:002015-11-10T15:49:23.066+00:00R Viswanathan,
If you would with acute vigilance e...R Viswanathan,<br />If you would with acute vigilance enquire immediately as and when your memory of your receiving of David Godman's answer arises to whom it has occured, you would find it is to 'me'. If then you enquire 'Who am I ?' the mind gets introverted and the rising thought also subsides.<br />This way the primary I-thought is the focus of your attention - if I am not wrong there.Apasthambanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-70884002147627814992015-11-03T04:25:10.383+00:002015-11-03T04:25:10.383+00:00"Merely giving up attending to or being aware..."Merely giving up attending to or being aware of anything else is not sufficient"<br /><br />In accord with the above statement of Sri Michael James, Sri David Godman clarified to me when I met him in person during my recent visit to Arunachala as follows: <br /><br />I asked him, too, as to whether the awareness with certainty that I am thought-free or that my attention is not on any external object can be considered as equivalent to attending to the primary I-thought, he answered that awareness of absence of external thoughts is just another thought and hence it cannot be considered as equivalent to attending to the primary I-thought. R Viswanathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/18066293987969833262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-11133181520774423042015-10-26T23:50:42.229+00:002015-10-26T23:50:42.229+00:00Hill Top,
Glad to know that you liked it. Tamil d...Hill Top,<br /><br />Glad to know that you liked it. Tamil diaspora, who either had a Saivite/Vaishnavite upbringing or at least aware of key literature of those traditions, have access to some of the most profound devotional literature, in their native language, that can be a huge help along the spiritual path irrespective of whether they follow Self-Enquiry, Meditation, Japa or other practices.<br /> <br />Thiruvasagam is considered to be among the peak of such key literature and has a saying “Those who could not melt for Thiruvasagam will not melt for anything else”. That Thiruvasagam that came to your pooja place, from your friend, will soon enter your heart. As you wrote earlier, let the ‘I-I’ do its act of grace. We the Jiva’s can rest in complete surrender to it.<br />Sivanarulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-17557761242722564592015-10-26T09:55:14.863+00:002015-10-26T09:55:14.863+00:00Thanks Sivanarul. That's a very nice explanati...Thanks Sivanarul. That's a very nice explanation -- just listened to part of first video. I have always been on the self-enquiry path.. only recently explored the bhakthi marga. And seems to confirm the saying all paths finally merge into one. A year or so ago a friend of mine gave me a small thiruvasagam book; I just kept it near pooja place and couldn't find the inclination to read it. Even though I had a desire to know what is said in it. Of course I'm aware of a few lines [like the one I quoted -- may be with God's grace those important lines which matter to me were revealed to me]. Nice to know this video which is much easier to follow. Thanks for the link.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06192669722680179933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-30851536978182246592015-10-26T00:26:22.924+00:002015-10-26T00:26:22.924+00:00Hill Top,
I was inspired by your mention of Sivap...Hill Top,<br /><br />I was inspired by your mention of Sivapuranam to check whether there is a line by line detailed explanation/speech of it, as each line is infused with deep Bhakthi and can be used as source for silent contemplation. I found the following excellent detailed explanation. I have listened to 7/19, so far, and felt blessed to hear it. Passing it on, in case you are interested to hear some of it.<br /><br />Arival Sivamagiya Manikkavasagar Thiruvadi Pottri.<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WKpusclv8Y&list=PLJ2vctmep0cBCTGLrZTWSmGDXlvBJXcMH&index=1<br /><br />Sivanarulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-8480006921329006932015-10-25T00:06:18.664+01:002015-10-25T00:06:18.664+01:00Michael,
thanks for your reply and pointing out my...Michael,<br />thanks for your reply and pointing out my fundamental misunderstanding..<br />I thought that giving up being aware of anything other than ourself is the same thing as abiding as ourself and therefore of equal value to be attentively self-aware. At least in linguistic usage is no significant difference. Therefore I thought equating both would be not wrong. Hence I thought that withdrawing our attention from everything else is to be equated with being attentively self-aware.<br />But I must concede to be a complete novice in this subject of practising atma-vichara.<br />I thought because there is only one undivided consciousness other things cannot be or appear to be.<br />Till now I do not grasp the serious difference between attentive self-awareness and „usual/normal/customary“ awareness.Jnanagninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-18982196780068059932015-10-24T16:29:15.517+01:002015-10-24T16:29:15.517+01:00Thanks Sanjay.
Sivanarul, Nice to know you could ...Thanks Sanjay.<br /><br />Sivanarul, Nice to know you could relate and about your experience. Thanks for the comments.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06192669722680179933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-87145152404440844002015-10-24T13:31:21.664+01:002015-10-24T13:31:21.664+01:00Hill Top,
“I mean Bhagavan's teachings look m...Hill Top,<br /><br />“I mean Bhagavan's teachings look more like a journal of I-I on It's journey to free a jiva and not a guide-book to jiva which he can follow on his own volition (which he has none).”<br /><br />Very nice observation. I have never seen Bhagavan’s teachings put like that before. Thank you very much for writing that. If ‘I-I’ is substituted with Siva, it is 100% in agreement with the Saivite/Bhakthi traditions teachings.<br /><br />Your Manikkavasakar’s quote was very apt. “[Manikkavasakar I believe says this in 'un arulaal un thaal vananginean' -- ie (only) with Your grace I bowed/prayed/paid-obeisance to your feet]”. I recite Sivapuranam as often as I can, and I still remember the day when I understood what those quote meant. It was an eye opener, which certified the path of surrender for me.<br /><br />I enjoyed reading all your other comments also. Thank you.<br />Sivanarulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-55971170749502362532015-10-24T11:48:07.582+01:002015-10-24T11:48:07.582+01:00Hill Top, since I am not able to answer your quest...Hill Top, since I am not able to answer your questions to your satisfaction, I will request Michael to try and answer your questions. I have tried my best to answer them, but as my understanding of Bhagavan's teaching is limited, I believe I have not been able to answer your questions. Regards. Sanjay Lohiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02384912997886218824noreply@blogger.com