tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post5051886881241322272..comments2023-10-16T13:06:42.360+01:00Comments on Happiness of Being: The Teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi: Does anything exist independent of our perception of it?Michael Jameshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03460943269122289281noreply@blogger.comBlogger122125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-81820295928339960482019-05-10T02:03:37.287+01:002019-05-10T02:03:37.287+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Asunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05375243105817283476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-44087617885392431692017-05-14T10:50:30.112+01:002017-05-14T10:50:30.112+01:00D Samarender Reddy,
so pure happiness is or has to...D Samarender Reddy,<br />so pure happiness is or has to be experienced beyond the five koshas.<br />Thanks for all your comments in these discussion. Kind regards.sat - bhavanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-47318172078050062642017-05-14T03:42:26.987+01:002017-05-14T03:42:26.987+01:00Sat - bhava,
We can experience only temporary hap...Sat - bhava,<br /><br />We can experience only temporary happiness in anandamaya kosha, and only when we realize the Self will there be unbroken, permanent pure happiness.D. Samarender Reddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18029954852517079748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-14151867580148696012017-05-13T16:37:17.889+01:002017-05-13T16:37:17.889+01:00D Samarender Reddy,
yes I mean not any temporary h...D Samarender Reddy,<br />yes I mean not any temporary happiness but our real adjunct-free nature.<br />So can we experience pure happiness "in anandamaya kosha" or only temporary pleasure/delight ?sat - bhavanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-45944717262468113352017-05-13T13:54:03.545+01:002017-05-13T13:54:03.545+01:00Sat - bhava,
Ignorance and happiness are not mutu...Sat - bhava,<br /><br />Ignorance and happiness are not mutually exclusive because of the very fact that we are "ignorant" of Brahman but we do experience "happiness" from time to time. But of course, you may choose to call such happiness not "real" and only happiness of Brahman is "real", then in that case ignorance and "real" happiness are mutually exclusive in that when we are under the spell of ignorance we cannot experience "real" happiness because ignorance by definition implies that we are "out of contact" or separated as it were (though since only Brahman exists, nothing can be apart from it) from Brahman by the vestures of the bodies or koshas.D. Samarender Reddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18029954852517079748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-88468918848387619972017-05-13T13:16:41.940+01:002017-05-13T13:16:41.940+01:00D Samarender Reddy,
thank you for explanation.
You...D Samarender Reddy,<br />thank you for explanation.<br />You describe anandamaya kosha as the mind's ignorance.<br />But how can it simultaneously experience happiness in that kosha of ignorance ?<br />With it I assume that ignorance and real happiness of being are mutual exclusive.sat - bhavanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-58133129887338770132017-05-13T11:57:47.766+01:002017-05-13T11:57:47.766+01:00Michael,
section 4.,
4. Nāṉ Yār? paragraph 4: this...Michael,<br />section 4.,<br />4. Nāṉ Yār? paragraph 4: this world is a mental projection, so it does not exist independent of our perception of it<br />"Excluding thoughts [or ideas], there is not separately any such thing as world. In sleep there are no thoughts, and [consequently] there is also no world; in waking and dream there are thoughts, and [consequently] there is also a world. Just as a spider spins out thread from within itself and again draws it back into itself, so the mind projects the world from within itself and again dissolves it back into itself."<br />Bhagavan's statement that there is no world separately from thoughts or ideas turns our daily experience upside down. The argument and conclusion that in sleep is no world because it is not perceived give us a nasty shock. Therefore we need an appropriate/matching shock treatment.<br />At present I do not understand the allegorical statement:<br />"Just as a spider spins out thread from within itself and again draws it back into itself, so the mind projects the world from within itself and again dissolves it back into itself."<br />The mentioned projection of the world by the mind is easier comprehensible when we think of the events in dream. But its immediate application to our so-called waking state is for the moment hair-raising. However, we cannot deprive Bhagavan of his unusual, extraordinary quite extraterrestrial experience. Therefore we should bow our head with humility. Of course our mind will never be able to understand/grasp that statement.<br />Too deep seems to be the rift valley between our daily sensory experience and Bhagavan's knowledge, unless Bhagavan's omnipresence leads us in the depth of our heart to him/his omniscience. On the other hand, are we - in our dense ignorance - able to afford mistrusting Bhagavan's teaching ?. <br />May Arunachala graciously inspire us !<br />ulladu-unarvunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-85499113179624540742017-05-13T11:13:50.459+01:002017-05-13T11:13:50.459+01:00Sat - bhava,
All these are models to explain the ...Sat - bhava,<br /><br />All these are models to explain the inexplicable. So, there are bound to be some seeming contradictions because we are trying to explain the illusory maya, while brahman/consciousness is the sole reality. However, to address your doubt, the best we could say is that when the mind finds an agreeable object/situation, it falls silent and the jiva is in close proximity to brahman with only the anandamaya kosha (or ignorance) separating him from it, and so he experiences the bliss of brahman, which is otherwise hidden from him unlike the sat-chit aspects of brahman. So, you could say that when the mind is temporarily stilled (or is absent as in the case of deep sleep)the only covering between jiva and brahman is ignorance or anandamaya-kosha, so it is said that he experiences happiness (as he also does in deep sleep) in anandamaya kosha.D. Samarender Reddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18029954852517079748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-29554036267540727532017-05-13T10:29:51.597+01:002017-05-13T10:29:51.597+01:00D Samarender Reddy,
since experience as such is ge...D Samarender Reddy,<br />since experience as such is generally not possible without awareness so also the experience of happiness in waking state is primarily an occurrence in awareness. Therefore you are implying that awareness (of happiness) is also included in the five sheaths. But is that not contradictory to your yesterday remark (introducing Pancha-kosha prakriya) that we "cannot be any of the five sheaths" ?<br />Particularly I thank you gratefully about your agreeable words of encouragement with regard to the missing prerequisites with reference to Bhagavan's saying. sat - bhavanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-74941922437730548842017-05-13T03:42:52.684+01:002017-05-13T03:42:52.684+01:00Sat - bhava,
"Is anybody aware of all the fi...Sat - bhava,<br /><br />"Is anybody aware of all the five koshas?" <br />In waking state, when you are experiencing happiness, you are experiencing all the five koshas because happiness belongs to the Anandamaya Kosha, subtle body and gross body anyway being present in the waking state because the mind and body are awake.<br /><br />Regarding you lacking some of the prerequisites for taking up the study of Vedanta, Bhagavan says in Talk 192 of Talks, "In fact there may not be found any individual in the world who possesses all the qualities in perfection necessary for an aspirant as mentioned in Yoga Sutras etc. Still pursuit of Self-Knowledge should not be abandoned." And, moreover, somewhere else Bhagavan says that pursuit of self-enquiry in and of itself will bring in its train all the auspicious qualities into one's being. So, don't bother about the prerequisites and just stick to self-enquiry to the best of your abilities on a regular basis.D. Samarender Reddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18029954852517079748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-88736468543850082622017-05-12T21:35:33.856+01:002017-05-12T21:35:33.856+01:00Michael,
section 7.,
1.) I agree completely: we do...Michael,<br />section 7.,<br />1.) I agree completely: we do not have any proof that the statement "nothing that we perceive exists independent of our perception of it" could be wrong.<br />But what is the proof that it is fully correct ?<br />2.) "... what we now take to be waking is actually just another dream"<br />Can you produce proof in support of this stunning statement ? <br /><br />I am highly interested in clearing that fundamental point of Bhagavan's teaching and would be very grateful for showing that point in the correct light or at least sheding some light on that.<br /><br /><br />ulladu-unarvunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-6944959497125919112017-05-12T20:42:48.147+01:002017-05-12T20:42:48.147+01:00D Samarender Reddy,
a) regarding the five sheaths...D Samarender Reddy,<br /><br />a) regarding the five sheaths,<br />In waking I am aware only of the gross body.<br />In dream I am aware of a subtle body but at most only in rough outlines.<br />Is anybody aware of all the five koshas ?<br /><br />b) regarding Sadhana Chatushtaya, Vairagya (dispassion) and Shad-sampatthi<br />My disinclination to sense-pleasures is not weak enough.<br />Certainly I do not possess the sixfold treasures namely sama (control of mind), dama (control of senses)and uparati (withdrawal of mind from sense-objects). So I clearly miss the prerequisites for taking up the study of Vedanta.<br /><br />c) What shall I do now ?<br /><br /><br />sat - bhavanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-83309275119881122822017-05-12T18:26:08.728+01:002017-05-12T18:26:08.728+01:00Mouna,greetings too,
indeed you caught me bursting...Mouna,greetings too,<br />indeed you caught me bursting with curiosity.<br />But your counterquestion "the question is who are you? now..." is possibly put also out of sheer curiosity. Or did you intend to raise your question to make me better questening myself who I am or investigating myself ? <br />In any case: as you correctly say we should not attend to other things than ourself as we really are.<br />sat - bhavanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-52622866146414100312017-05-12T16:09:52.181+01:002017-05-12T16:09:52.181+01:00@Palaniappan:
Michael has elsewhere refuted this...@Palaniappan: <br /><br />Michael has elsewhere refuted this second method. He seems to be quite emphatic that the only proper method of self enquiry is focusing attention on I am. At least this is the impression I got from the following:<br /><br />http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.in/2017/03/rather-than-being-aware-of-being-aware.htmlSanjay Srivastavahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12178069405979485331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-32491742923381411782017-05-12T15:44:51.586+01:002017-05-12T15:44:51.586+01:00Sat-bhava, greetings
"...many years ago... I...Sat-bhava, greetings<br /><br /><i>"...many years ago... I was still an advaitin at that time!" And what are you now ?"</i><br /><br />In this case the question is not who am I now... the question is <i>who are <b>you</b>?</i> now...Mounahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02416580298727681711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-33828530317934849382017-05-12T12:46:59.419+01:002017-05-12T12:46:59.419+01:00D Samarender Reddy,
many thanky again.
I will firs...D Samarender Reddy,<br />many thanky again.<br />I will first study your compilation of the mentioned prakriyas.<br />But now at once I must go out in the city.sat - bhavanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-52140382812985782042017-05-12T12:33:16.717+01:002017-05-12T12:33:16.717+01:00Sat - bhava,
Space does not permit me to go into ...Sat - bhava,<br /><br />Space does not permit me to go into great details on the prakriyas (if you want more details, let me know your email ID and I will email you some stuff):<br /><br />1. <b>Avasthatraya prakriya</b> is imply the analysis of the 3 states of waking-dream-deep sleep to establish that one is not the body-mind. The way that is done is by showing that since you say on waking up, "I slept happily without knowing anything", you must have been present in deep sleep to have experienced happiness, and since in deep sleep you were dissociated from the body-mind, you must not be the body-mind without which you can still exist as in deep sleep.<br /><br />2. <b>Pancha-kosha prakriya</b> - this prakriya (analysis) established that you cannot be any of the five sheaths (food sheath [annamaya kosha] - gross body, pranamaya kosha [vital sheath], manomaya kosha [mental sheath], vijnanamaya kosha [intellect sheath] - subtle body, and bliss sheath [anandamaya kosha] - causal body) because all the five sheaths are subject to change and are impermanent.<br /><br />3. <b>Drik-Drsya Viveka</b> - seer and seen are different. So, objects of the world are seen and eye is the seer; going inwards, eyes are the seen and mind is the seer; mind is the seen and consciousness is the seer; and consciousness is not seen seen by any entity other than itself, so consciousness is the true seer (or subject) and you are that.<br /><br />4. <b>Karana-Karya prakriya</b> - Cause-effect analysis - just as in all the clay pots, clay alone is the reality, brahman or consciousness is alone the reality in the various phenomena of the world, including body-mind.<br /><br /><b>Sadhana Chatushtaya</b><br />1. Viveka (discrimination) - discrimination between the self and not-self<br />2. Vairagya (dispassion) - disinclination to pleasures here and hereafter<br />3. Shad-sampatthi (sixfold treasure) - sama (control of mind), dama (control of senses), uparati (withdrawal of mind from sense objects), titiksha (fortitude), shraddha (faith in guru and scripture), and samadhana (mental absorption on the truth revealed by guru and scripture).<br />4. Mumukshutva - intense yearning for liberation.<br /><br />Note that sadhana chatushtaya (fourfold qualification) is considered a prerquisite before taking up the study of Vedanta.<br /><br />Hope the above write-up helps you.D. Samarender Reddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18029954852517079748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-86353106447506309302017-05-12T12:28:38.670+01:002017-05-12T12:28:38.670+01:00R Viswanathan,
thanks for your comment giving Sadh...R Viswanathan,<br />thanks for your comment giving Sadhu Om's direction.<br />So first as a prerequisite I have to win/gain (the) divine grace. But of course I cannot summon it or beckon it over. It will not be enough to long for it.sat - bhavanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-29459429598489678922017-05-12T12:12:43.181+01:002017-05-12T12:12:43.181+01:00Recently I met someone in Ramanasramam and was dis...Recently I met someone in Ramanasramam and was discussing about the subject.<br /><br />When Bhagavan spoke of self - enquiry it is about paying complete attention to Iam, vigilantly and attentively. As you had mentioned earlier in most of your commentaries, we are always self aware, but not attentively self aware. So self enquiry is about being attentively aware of Iam or being attentively self aware by which all other objects of awareness are excluded automatically. The reason of paying attention to Iam is, it seems to exist holding to other objects (thoughts, sense perceptions, i'm the body sense, emotions etc). Once we turn the attention to itself and hold it vigilantly for long enough it will start to subside revealing our actual self.<br /><br />My friend said, this is like concentration. It is like to place our consciousness upon the self and if we are able to continue it persistently only. <br /><br />He suggested the other way is like we do not give importance to concentration, as in the case of placing our attention upon the I. Instead of creating concentration, we remove the concentration itself. We know the focusing type of torch light. If we put on the torch, the light will be focused in a particular object. If we turn the focus, we will see other objects upon which the focused light touches. This is like the way of concentration. We know the ordinary electrical light. It has no focusing point. So the light of the ordinary electrical light, spreads everywhere equally. Just like the sunlight, the electrical light spreads everywhere without having any focusing aspect. So we do not place our attention upon a particular object, but instead, we spread our awareness everywhere. <br /><br />Here we are conscious of everything at a time. If we hear somebody talking, it is concentration. If we hear all the sounds around us including the talk, it is this total consciousness without concentration. When we attend all the sound at a time, it is placing our consciousness, upon all the things equally. Here we have no concentration. So that we do not know any particular object. Here, consciousness, alone gets importance. Here, neither the I who is conscious of nor the object upon which I is conscious of gets importance. Neither the subject nor the object gets importance. In case they get importance, both subject and object get equal importance. Here, the totality of our consciousness alone gets importance. If we are able to maintain this kind of consciousness, by way of our constant practice, both the observer and the observed become the part of the total consciousness.When everything becomes one, we can have the experience as I am everything and everything are our I consciousness.<br /><br />I tried to understand but couldn't get how he mentioned that totality of consciousness is experienced without subject / object. Is it calling just being aware of nothing specific not ever of awareness?<br /><br />Your thoughts and understanding on this will help me bring more clarity. Palanihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18034312448262280563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-52415859656021619272017-05-12T12:06:43.042+01:002017-05-12T12:06:43.042+01:00D Samarender Reddy,
many thanks for your hints.
Ob...D Samarender Reddy,<br />many thanks for your hints.<br />Obviously "prakriya" means sadhana/exercise or practice.<br />Could you explain Avasthatraya pr. , Panchakosha pr. and Karana-Karya pr., Drk-Drsya viveka and chatushtaya in more detail ?sat - bhavanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-75263930309838806022017-05-12T12:00:22.789+01:002017-05-12T12:00:22.789+01:00"So when it is managed to convince oneself en..."So when it is managed to convince oneself enough that summa iru (to be still) is the culmination/highest form of philosophy how to start to be still which seems to be free of all unnecessary adjuncts ?"<br /><br />Sri Sadhu Om in his Vilakkavurai for Aksharamanamalai (verse 39) gives the following direction (p 195-196): At the end of sadhana, when the doership is in the state of total annihilation, the divine power that emanates from atma attracts and pulls the mind to effect the completion of sadhana by way of completely dissolving the mind in it. However, in the beginning of sadhana, it is necessary for the mind to practise self-attentiveness with love towards atma with the determination to not attend things other than self and without leaving the sole aim of self-attentiveness. <br /><br />Before suggesting the above direction, he points out that it is only the divine grace of grace of atma that induces one to begin the sadhana; and the love for atma and determination (to not attend to other things) will work to increasingly and eventually annihilate the doership which one starts the sadhana with. R Viswanathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/18066293987969833262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-31119932576145936572017-05-12T11:33:01.032+01:002017-05-12T11:33:01.032+01:00Sat - bhava,
You ask how to "Be Still"....Sat - bhava,<br /><br />You ask how to "Be Still". What I found helps me is the conviction that I am not the mind, which creates a certain loosening of identity with thoughts as being one's own and instead they are merely seen as any other objects. How to be convinced one is not the mind? Several prakriyas - Avasthatraya prakriya, Panchakosha prakriya, Drk-Drsya viveka, Karana-Karya prakriya. In addition, the sadhana chatushtaya also helps.D. Samarender Reddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18029954852517079748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-80851315822807197542017-05-12T11:02:51.995+01:002017-05-12T11:02:51.995+01:00Mouna,
",,,many years ago... I was still an a...Mouna,<br />",,,many years ago... I was still an advaitin at that time!"<br />And what are you now ?<br />sat - bhavanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-5873173602730080992017-05-12T11:01:00.470+01:002017-05-12T11:01:00.470+01:00D Samarender Reddy,
"...so all discussion(s) ...D Samarender Reddy,<br />"...so all discussion(s) at the level of the mind are useful only insofar as they convince you enough to be still."<br />So when it is managed to convince oneself enough that summa iru (to be still) is the culmination/highest form of philosophy how to start to be still which seems to be free of all unnecessary adjuncts ?<br /> In my experience there I encounter an impenetrable and inscrutable thicket/dense undergrowth of mental or emotional "plants" which make no move to vanish.<br />My patience is wearing thin. No, my patience is already worn out.<br />Is there any alternative but to start (later) again and again ?sat - bhavanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-42367933717636071272017-05-12T10:21:29.268+01:002017-05-12T10:21:29.268+01:00
The ego must investigate itself because it cannot...<br />The ego must investigate itself because it cannot investigate immediately that what we really are ?<br />How can we investigate anything what we cannot see but only are aware of ?sat - bhavanoreply@blogger.com