tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post415974660566275206..comments2023-10-16T13:06:42.360+01:00Comments on Happiness of Being: The Teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi: The ego is the thinker, not the act of thinkingMichael Jameshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03460943269122289281noreply@blogger.comBlogger85125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-68969941877785813952019-05-10T12:14:17.156+01:002019-05-10T12:14:17.156+01:00Rafael,(or perhaps Salazar ?),
as you imply practi...Rafael,(or perhaps Salazar ?),<br />as you imply practically experiencing of what we actually are is certainly the best and most important goal.<br />Because I don't have the appropriate magic spell for being immediately self-aware I need - for the meantime - to try keenly looking at the thinker which is an other name for ego. On the other hand observing thoughts is easily done but does not lead (me) further.<br />I do not at all feel tempted to imagine how "that transcendental state of turiya looks like". As you correctly state, such speculation is only mental exercise.<br />The primary goal of proper inquiry is not the total exclusion of the phenomenal world but the total annihilation of the deceitful mind which is said to veil our real nature. That then the phenomenal world is not seen anymore as such is most likely. Let us see it thereafter. It will prove to be as it is.:-)<br />anadi-anantahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08815024045988099944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-46966451525193576922019-05-08T21:29:09.671+01:002019-05-08T21:29:09.671+01:00It makes sense for me if one wants to do properly ...It makes sense for me if one wants to do properly inquiry the goal must be the total exclusion of the phenomenal world. As long as the slightest and most subtle object is still perceived the ego is still alive. Realization has been compared with the state of deep sleep and it seems a plausible description but is that not just from the viewpoint of the ego? Could we possibly imagine how that transcendental state of turiya looks like? Since we reason from the viewpoint of the mind we certainly cannot. So who knows what a sage is really 'seeing'. It must be a speculation no less.. .https://www.blogger.com/profile/03243347924405863536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-31666545378908838972019-05-08T16:47:50.215+01:002019-05-08T16:47:50.215+01:00Anadi-ananta, you talked about vague conceptions, ...Anadi-ananta, you talked about vague conceptions, you are aware that even this article is a speculation by default until it is practically experienced? Your mind decided to believe that and added it to the many concepts you chose to believe. But it is merely a belief until it is experienced as it happened with the Maharshi.<br /><br />That is true for any belief. My priest says that Jesus is the only Son of God and therefore only Jesus can bring salvation, not the Buddha, not the Maharshi nor any other religious figure. As proof he quotes the New Testament, mainly the Gospel of John. <br /><br />Now for you it may sound preposterous and you are convinced that what you have chosen is the correct belief. But how do you really know? On what grounds?<br /><br />Unless you are practically experiencing it it is a speculation of mind. Even if it comes from the Maharshi or any other figure like the Buddha or Jesus Christ. . .https://www.blogger.com/profile/03243347924405863536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-74044500199746035472019-05-08T14:41:14.716+01:002019-05-08T14:41:14.716+01:00Anadi-ananta, as I said before, there is no practi...Anadi-ananta, as I said before, there is no practical difference for me between where the thinker and where thoughts are coming from. That article might be right and very likely is, but with inquiry it doesn't matter for me, being is being.<br /><br />Since you said that you struggle with inquiry, I am surprised that you are so persistent on this particular point. It must give your mind comfort. Is that your way of inquiry?<br /><br />Anyway I am glad you are enjoying your mental exercises.Purification of mind does NOT reflect on one’s outward behavior, a purified mind is no mind and any perceived behavior is illusionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03403745904820287115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-62172080002259250762019-05-08T11:44:21.488+01:002019-05-08T11:44:21.488+01:00Rafael,
"...proper talk for the specialists. ...Rafael,<br />"...proper talk for the specialists. But then one has to read more about what that actually exactly means and then I get lost in the jungle of mental speculations."<br />Yes, we should try to do everything possible to get a clear picture of Bhagavan's teaching and of what is really going on. Therefore in that sense we may even try to become "specialists".<br />Otherwise we run the risk to remain crawling in vague conceptions (as you call "speculation").<br />However, in any case it's also good "just to uphold that practice and see where it leads to". <br />anadi-anantahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08815024045988099944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-7942059446639776792019-05-07T23:54:35.068+01:002019-05-07T23:54:35.068+01:00Anadi-ananta, for to look from where what arises o...Anadi-ananta, for to look from where what arises one can use the Maharshi's term of aham-vritti instead of thinker or thoughts, I suppose that would be the proper talk for the specialists. But then one has to read more about what that actually exactly means and then I get lost in the jungle of mental speculations.<br /><br />So to look for the origin of thoughts may not satisfy the specialists but as a clue it is quite satisfactory for me. My goal is just to uphold that practice and see where it leads to. I fired quite a few questions in my previous comment and I apologize, I am not really seeking the answers for that, it would just create more food for speculation. But anybody can share their opinions if they like.. .https://www.blogger.com/profile/03243347924405863536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-77027952457955182452019-05-07T23:25:35.753+01:002019-05-07T23:25:35.753+01:00Rafael,
because you insist stating "Again, pr...Rafael,<br />because you insist stating "Again, practically in the act of inquiry, it is not important if one looks where thoughts come from or the thinker of thoughts, it is the same." you may consider carefully what Michael wrote just in the second paragraph of this article:<br /><br />"If the ego were the act of thinking, we could investigate it simply by observing our thinking, which is obviously not the case. To investigate this ego we must ignore all thinking and observe only the thinker, the one who is aware of thinking and of the thoughts produced by thinking. Therefore it is necessary for us to clearly distinguish the thinker from its thinking, and also from whatever it thinks."<br /><br />Certainly you would highly benefit from studying the entire article of 8 th May 2016 The ego is the thinker, not the act of thinking. Then you might address further comments and questions directly to Michael himself. anadi-anantahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08815024045988099944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-83360962653811964902019-05-07T21:30:02.421+01:002019-05-07T21:30:02.421+01:00Anadi-ananta, yes, the thinker appears more hidden...Anadi-ananta, yes, the thinker appears more hidden than the thoughts, however what has that to do with from where all that arises? There are many clues, one can look at the gap between two thoughts what equals the source of the thinker and its thoughts. Again, practically in the act of inquiry, it is not important if one looks where thoughts come from or the thinker of thoughts, it is the same. <br /><br />Now if you like to make distinctions on an abstract level you can do that, but how would that change the practice of being/vichara? In fact, talking about thinker and thoughts and how that possibly relates to each other makes things more unclear than clear for me. It would take me into the area of speculation since it is not in alignment with my practical experience.. .https://www.blogger.com/profile/03243347924405863536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-3470004387614726982019-05-07T21:06:29.203+01:002019-05-07T21:06:29.203+01:00It is said that one is supposed to not have just l...It is said that one is supposed to not have just long periods of vichara but to have more a deeper and intense awareness of I with less and less awareness of anything else.<br /><br />How is that possibly done, to ever more decrease the awareness of everything else? How does that differ from just being? What exactly makes that change of apparent quality? Is not being just being? What sees the differences in that being and is that seer not the cause of not being aware of just self? The seer would kill himself at the point of total unawareness of the phenomenal world. But can the seer deliberately annihilate himself? How would the seer what equals to the 'first thought I' do that? It cannot annihilate that what makes it exist in the first place.<br /><br />That 'first thought I' can only think thoughts, how could it kill itself in not thinking thoughts? That would be the equivalent of the sun stop shining. Can the ego facilitate its own demise? I cannot believe it could. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />. .https://www.blogger.com/profile/03243347924405863536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-7121758041283534732019-05-07T20:40:09.160+01:002019-05-07T20:40:09.160+01:00Rafael,
my experience is that the thinker is "...Rafael,<br />my experience is that the thinker is "located" much deeper than his thoughts which remain mostly on the surface of mind. <br />In answer to your question whether I experience emptiness doing inquiry or also something else, if at all, I honestly have to admit: at my attempts to be self-attentive I am far away from having gained the required strength of bhakti and vairāgya that would enable me to cling fast to self-attentiveness. Therefore unfortunately my inner field of vision is seldom free of thoughts. Even sometimes fierce fighting is necessary to continue my self-scrutiny. So at present my self-investigation is not exactly crowned with much success.<br />anadi-anantahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08815024045988099944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-19980146268003619042019-05-07T15:53:44.359+01:002019-05-07T15:53:44.359+01:00Rajat, when Bhagavan says that what is called worl...Rajat, when Bhagavan says that what is called world is nothing but thought, he implies that all phenomena are just thoughts. Therefore when he says in the <a href="http://happinessofbeing.com/nan_yar.html#para06" rel="nofollow">sixth paragraph</a> of <i>Nāṉ Ār?</i>, ‘பிற வெண்ணங்க ளெழுந்தா லவற்றைப் பூர்த்தி பண்ணுவதற்கு எத்தனியாமல் அவை யாருக் குண்டாயின என்று விசாரிக்க வேண்டும். எத்தனை எண்ணங்க ளெழினு மென்ன? ஜாக்கிரதையாய் ஒவ்வோ ரெண்ணமும் கிளம்பும்போதே இது யாருக்குண்டாயிற்று என்று விசாரித்தால் எனக்கென்று தோன்றும். நானார் என்று விசாரித்தால் மனம் தன் பிறப்பிடத்திற்குத் திரும்பிவிடும்; எழுந்த வெண்ணமு மடங்கிவிடும்’ (<i>piṟa v-eṇṇaṅgaḷ eṙundāl avaṯṟai-p pūrtti paṇṇuvadaṟku ettaṉiyāmal avai yārukku uṇḍāyiṉa eṉḏṟu vicārikka vēṇḍum. ettaṉai eṇṇaṅgaḷ eṙiṉum eṉṉa? jāggirataiyāy ovvōr eṇṇamum kiḷambum-pōdē idu yārukku uṇḍāyiṯṟu eṉḏṟu vicārittāl eṉakkeṉḏṟu tōṉḏṟum. nāṉ-ār eṉḏṟu vicārittāl maṉam taṉ piṟappiḍattiṟku-t tirumbi-viḍum; eṙunda v-eṇṇamum aḍaṅgi-viḍum</i>), ‘If other thoughts rise, without trying to complete them it is necessary to investigate to whom they have occurred. However many thoughts rise, what [does it matter]? As soon as each thought appears, if one vigilantly investigates to whom it has occurred, it will be clear: to me. If one [thus] investigates who am I, the mind will return to its birthplace [oneself, the source from which it arose]; [and since one thereby refrains from attending to it] the thought which had risen will also cease’, we can paraphrase the meaning of this passage as follows:<br /><br />If any phenomena appear, instead of nourishing their appearance with one’s attention it is necessary for one to investigate to whom they have appeared. However many phenomena appear, what does it matter? As soon as each phenomenon appears, if one vigilantly investigates to whom it has appeared, it will be clear: to me. If one thus investigates who am I, the mind will return [or turn back] to the source from which it arose, namely oneself; [and since one thereby refrains from attending to it] the phenomenon which had appeared will also disappear.<br /><br />That is, the appearance of any phenomenon in our awareness shows that our attention has been distracted away from ourself, so instead of attending to that phenomenon we should try to turn our attention back towards ourself. To the extent that we attend to ourself, our attention will thereby be withdrawn from other things, so other things (phenomena) will then recede into the background of our awareness. If we manage to turn our entire attention back to ourself, we will cease to be aware of any phenomena, and thus we will be aware of ourself as we actually are.<br /><br />Ideally we should try to turn our attention back to ourself whenever we become aware of anything other than ourself from the moment we wake up till the moment we fall asleep, but because we lack sufficient <i>bhakti</i> and <i>vairāgya</i>, for most of us it is not possible to do so all the time. We can only begin from where we now stand, so what is necessary is that we try to be self-attentive as much as possible, because if we persevere in this practice we will gradually gain the strength of <i>bhakti</i> and <i>vairāgya</i> that will enable us to cling fast to self-attentiveness more and more, as Bhagavan says in the next sentence of the same paragraph of <i>Nāṉ Ār?</i>: ‘இப்படிப் பழகப் பழக மனத்திற்குத் தன் பிறப்பிடத்திற் றங்கி நிற்கும் சக்தி யதிகரிக்கின்றது’ (<i>ippaḍi-p paṙaga-p paṙaga maṉattiṟku-t taṉ piṟappiḍattil taṅgi niṟgum śakti y-adhikarikkiṉḏṟadu</i>), ‘When one practises and practises in this manner, to the mind the power to stand firmly established in its birthplace will increase’.Michael Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03460943269122289281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-12289165854738827112019-05-07T14:59:02.836+01:002019-05-07T14:59:02.836+01:00According to Bhagavan’s teachings, the whole world...According to Bhagavan’s teachings, the whole world is just thought. <br />But in the 6th paragraph of Nan Yar, Bhagavan says, "However many thoughts rise, what [does it matter]? As soon as each thought appears, if one vigilantly investigates to whom it has occurred, it will be clear: to me." <br />In the above quote, the word thought seems to refer not to the whole world, but to the conventional sense of the term, as thought waves or noise in the mind, because of the phrase 'many thoughts', and also the phrase, 'as soon as each thought appears', because the world appears as soon as we wake up, and thereafter what appear and disappear are only many conventional thoughts in the mind. The world seems to be there unchangingly. How to understand the statement 'as soon as each thought appears'? Is the moment of waking from sleep being referred to here? Or the arising of thoughts and ideas in the mind throughout the day? Rajathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10446174099698255476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-82491671586367009202019-05-07T14:44:04.093+01:002019-05-07T14:44:04.093+01:00Anadi-ananta, I cannot see a practical difference ...Anadi-ananta, I cannot see a practical difference between looking from where thoughts arise or from where the thinker arises. It is the same for me. So do you have a different experience?<br /><br />And you have not answered my question, do you experience emptiness doing inquiry or also something else, if at all?Purification of mind does NOT reflect on one’s outward behavior, a purified mind is no mind and any perceived behavior is illusionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03403745904820287115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-21383911685509794662019-05-07T08:57:33.470+01:002019-05-07T08:57:33.470+01:00Ego,
you certainly do not deny that in order to pe...Ego,<br />you certainly do not deny that in order to perform at all an act of thinking (thoughts) there must logically be a thinker or a thinking awareness. As you seem to imply awareness is always there if thinking or not.<br /> anadi-anantahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08815024045988099944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-85784203081039449442019-05-06T21:26:02.205+01:002019-05-06T21:26:02.205+01:00anadi-anantha,
Where is the person who calls hims...anadi-anantha,<br /><br />Where is the person who calls himself anadi-anantha without thoughts or without the action of thinking or say in deep sleep? There is no such person called anadi-anantha in deep sleep state which is "without" any thoughts but YOU as the very nature of deep sleep and pure awareness are very much there as only bliss and pure existence. Only the act of thinking thoughts, simultaneously gives rise to the assumption and reality of the "person called anadi-anatha"as though he is actually very real and really existing.Asunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05375243105817283476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-21615587397939765112019-05-06T21:20:24.252+01:002019-05-06T21:20:24.252+01:00Rafael,
instead of looking from where thoughts or ...Rafael,<br />instead of looking from where thoughts or memory appear try to investigate/scrutinize from where the thinker of thoughts rises. At least that is what Bhagavan taught us.anadi-anantahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08815024045988099944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-72475434168062556842019-05-06T20:33:09.251+01:002019-05-06T20:33:09.251+01:00Anadi-ananta, most of the clarifications by Michae...Anadi-ananta, most of the clarifications by Michael did not reach my mind and it feels it is the same for others since I see many requests for clarifications who ask to clarify what has been clarified before (I am lurking for many months). At least from what I can tell. To your other question, I did not mean refinement of Ulladu Narpadu. Could that actually be refined? How could the Maharshi's teaching be refined, it seems highly refined by me.<br /><br />What is clear to me is to look from where thoughts appear and that is experimentally for me nothing, an empty space of some sorts. Now it is said that this cannot be empty and I have to take that on faith value since my experience is as long as there is no thought there is nothing. That's where my experience stops, and anything more - than emptiness - requires the activity of my mind which would ruin that emptiness and I am back to what most non-aspirants do, following the thoughts and ideas of the mind. So if there is more than emptiness it comes only as a thought or memory.<br /><br />Do you experience something different than emptiness and what would that be? <br />. .https://www.blogger.com/profile/03243347924405863536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-17936616715035774482019-05-06T19:43:50.999+01:002019-05-06T19:43:50.999+01:00Ego,
"So thought creates the thinker,..."...Ego,<br />"So thought creates the thinker,...".<br />In my opinion this statement is simply wrong because the object cannot be seriously considered as subject.anadi-anantahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08815024045988099944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-78593765640859316832019-05-06T19:13:14.179+01:002019-05-06T19:13:14.179+01:00This is for any guest who is only really intereste...This is for any guest who is only really interested in this topic of "thinker and thinking thoughts" posted Micheal James.<br /><br />You can search for this article in google.<br /><br />the system of thought<br />WHEREVER THERE’S A THOUGHT THERE’S A THINKER<br />FEB 12. 2016<br /><br />by The negative Psychologist.<br />Asunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05375243105817283476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-64710126016158541432019-05-06T18:06:22.678+01:002019-05-06T18:06:22.678+01:00Here is another comment by the renowned teacher J....Here is another comment by the renowned teacher J.Krishnamurti (since he has been mentioned here by another guest) which also bears relevance to this topic posted by Michael James. "The ego is the thinker, not the act of thinking".<br /><br />From: <br /><br />"Thought creates the thinker".<br /><br />The Book of Life, August 16, HarperSanFrancisco, 1995<br /><br />Thought is verbalized sensation; thought is the response of memory, the word, the experience, the image. Thought is transient, changing, impermanent, and it is seeking permanency. So thought creates the thinker, who then becomes the permanent; he assumes the role of the censor, the guide, the controller, the molder of thought. This illusory permanent entity is the product of thought, of the transient. This entity is thought; without thought he is not. The thinker is made up of qualities; his qualities cannot be separated from himself. The controller is the controlled, he is merely playing a deceptive game with himself. Till the false is seen as the false, truth is not.<br /><br />J.Krishnamurti.<br /><br />Asunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05375243105817283476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-28481923299376346922019-05-06T17:15:01.973+01:002019-05-06T17:15:01.973+01:00Rafael,
you can and should ask Michael for clarify...Rafael,<br />you can and should ask Michael for clarifying of any text of 'Ulladu Narpadu' or any other teachings of Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi which is unclear for you. <br /><br />Regarding "refinement": do you mean refinement of teaching or of (y)our understanding ?anadi-anantahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08815024045988099944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-66835783400523279382019-05-06T15:51:45.188+01:002019-05-06T15:51:45.188+01:00Anadi-ananta, looking at the many, many requests f...Anadi-ananta, looking at the many, many requests for clarification it looks like that the teachings of the Maharshi are also not clear. For me Ulladu Narpadu is as unclear as that comment by Krishnamurti and if I understand Mr. James correctly, it needs refinement to understand.. .https://www.blogger.com/profile/03243347924405863536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-30567726749555330662019-05-06T00:47:04.578+01:002019-05-06T00:47:04.578+01:00அருணாசல அக்ஷரமணமாலை,
is that a clear teaching ?அருணாசல அக்ஷரமணமாலை,<br />is that a clear teaching ?anadi-anantahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08815024045988099944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-65203825863597886312019-05-05T18:59:05.822+01:002019-05-05T18:59:05.822+01:00As per J. Krishnamurti:
The Book of Life, Septem...As per J. Krishnamurti: <br /><br />The Book of Life, September 11, HarperSanFrancisco, 1995.<br /><br />The thinker is the thought.<br /><br />Is it not necessary to understand the thinker, the doer, the actor, since his thought, his deed, his action cannot be separated from him? The thinker is the thought, the doer is the deed, the actor is the action. In his thought the thinker is revealed. The thinker through his actions creates his own misery, his ignorance, his strife. The painter paints this picture of passing happiness, of sorrow, of confusion. Why does he produce this painful picture? <br /><br />Surely, this is the problem that must be studied, understood and dissolved. Why does the thinker think his thoughts, from which flow all his actions? This is the rock wall against which you have been battering your head, is it not? If the thinker can transcend himself, then all conflict will cease: and to transcend he must know himself. What is known and understood, what is fulfilled and completed does not repeat itself. It is repetition that gives continuity to the thinker. <br /><br />J. Krishnamurti.Asunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05375243105817283476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-39128088613787923942019-05-05T16:43:12.231+01:002019-05-05T16:43:12.231+01:00Unknown,
if you would read the article carefully y...Unknown,<br />if you would read the article carefully you soon would find the answer to your question.anadi-anantahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08815024045988099944noreply@blogger.com