tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post6661917973093423347..comments2023-10-16T13:06:42.360+01:00Comments on Happiness of Being: The Teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi: The karma theory as taught by Sri RamanaMichael Jameshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03460943269122289281noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-34200148014376182482020-01-21T20:18:18.585+00:002020-01-21T20:18:18.585+00:00Hello Michael, Thank you for the post!
There is o...Hello Michael, Thank you for the post!<br /><br />There is one thing that feels a bit unfamiliar, where you explain that "whatever fresh karma we do in any lifetime will not be experienced by us during that lifetime, but will be stored in order to be experienced in future lives." I believe there is not one experience but rather falls within the spectrum of experiences. One end of the specturn are the karmas whose experience can be felt instantaneously and other end karmas whose experiences are carried over and stored in our sub-conscious for future lifetimes. And thus in our ignorance we end of increasing our karmic experiences.<br /><br />Gratitude!<br />KiranZinniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05451509465657007910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-31142518312462951392018-07-18T23:00:52.202+01:002018-07-18T23:00:52.202+01:00Concerning free will, I suspect this only pertains...Concerning free will, I suspect this <b>only pertains to desire</b> not speech or action as RM states:<br /><br /><i>Divine Will prevails at all times and under all circumstances. <b>Individuals cannot act of their own accord.</b> Recognise the force of the Divine Will and keep quiet.</i>Aham Asmihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11706579115577800525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-69230967392086335362017-02-21T10:42:23.891+00:002017-02-21T10:42:23.891+00:00Been using AVG anti virus for a few years, and I&#...Been using <b><a href="http://antivirus.syntaxlinks.com/r/AVG" rel="nofollow">AVG</a></b> anti virus for a few years, and I'd recommend this product to all of you.Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287821785570247118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-1360819441358992852016-08-08T13:18:26.670+01:002016-08-08T13:18:26.670+01:00WHAT BHAGWAN RAMANA MAHARISHI SAYS EXACTLY RIGHT E...WHAT BHAGWAN RAMANA MAHARISHI SAYS EXACTLY RIGHT EVERY THING IS PREDETERMINED AND PROVED THROUGH PHYSICS ALSO BY ALBERT EINSTEIN <br /> BUT ONLY ONE QUESTION SIR TO ASK IF EVERY THING IS PREDETERMINED THEN WHAT IS THE USE OF HARDWORK FOR INSTANCE I AM A BUSINESS MAN MY GOOS ARE GIVEN TO SOME BODY AND HE HAS TO PAY THE MONEY TO ME AND HE IS NOT GIVING ME MY MONEY BY WANTEDLY OR BECAUSE OF HIS FINANCIAL PROBLEM THAT WE DO NOT KNOW SO HERE I AM SUPPOSE TO TELL THAT MY MONEY TO STRUCK WITH HIM WAS ALREADY PREDETERMINED OR IT WAS MY FREE WILL AND IF I HARDWORK FOR MY MONEY AND STAY MY WHOLE LIFE BEHIND HIM SO THAT ALSO WILL BE PREDETERMINED OR IT IS MY PRARABDHA KARMA <br /> WHAT TO DO WHETHER TO LEAVE THE SITUATION AS IT IS OR GO BEHIND HIM THE WHOLE LIFE STAYING POSITIVE THAT HE WILL GIVE MY MONEY BACK <br /><br />TOTALLY CONFUSED PLS SHOW THE WAYAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13178297950604579195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-91150923163954445712015-09-02T23:28:30.368+01:002015-09-02T23:28:30.368+01:00I posted my above question. I was so nervous and a...I posted my above question. I was so nervous and anxious to find out the answer. I googled it. Couldn't find a convincing answer. Then all of a sudden, a question arose "To whom is this nervousness and anxiety?".<br /><br />Sat in front of Maharshi for sometime in silence. Then convincing answer was revealed. <br /><br />Thought forms(Body/World/All gross and subtle objects that we are aware of) are pre-destined. They appear in an order as per Praradhdha. Thought form that is destined to appear appears and not destined to appear doesn't appear. Free will is to whether identify ourselves as a doer and rejoice/regret OR abide in the source of all thought forms and be with our very nature ie., peace. Doership creates Agamya Karma.RamanaSadGurunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-24447778935245531532015-09-02T19:53:09.852+01:002015-09-02T19:53:09.852+01:00Dear Michael,
Thank you for all your excellent wo...Dear Michael,<br /><br />Thank you for all your excellent work.<br /><br />I have a doubt.<br /><br />As you mentioned - "What Sri Ramana clearly implies here by saying, ‘What is never to happen will not happen whatever effort [one] makes; what is to happen will not stop whatever obstruction [one] does’, is firstly that we are not free to change whatever we are destined to experience, and secondly that we are nevertheless free to try to change it."<br /><br />Trying to change is itself is an experience, right? Does it not imply it is also pre-destined?<br /><br />For example, I am walking on a road and someone unknown curses me. I feel bad. It is an experience pre-destined by Prarabhdha. Now I can either ignore those words and be silent OR I can get angry and curse that person back. If I ignore, I experience peace and if I curse him back, I experience turbulence. As all experiences are pre-destined, is that not true that to remain silent or curse back is all pre-destined? Then accumulation of Agamya Karma is also pre-destined?<br /><br />Thank you.RamanaSadGurunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-42353868041672354032015-02-13T20:43:29.363+00:002015-02-13T20:43:29.363+00:00Yes, Suresh, and according to Bhagavan the ‘lotus ...Yes, Suresh, and according to Bhagavan the ‘lotus feet of the Lord’ and the ‘right direction’ in which we should direct our free will is only ourself. Thinking about anything else is futile.<br /><br />As Sri Ramakrishna advised, let us just enjoy the mangoes (by subsiding and abiding in ourself, the source from which we have risen) and ignore everything else.Michael Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03460943269122289281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-37173035825578626262015-02-13T18:20:09.846+00:002015-02-13T18:20:09.846+00:00Karma theory is to ensure that we direct our freew...Karma theory is to ensure that we direct our freewill in the right direction. <br /><br />Sri Ramakrishna says, <br />"Is it possible to understand God's action and His motive? He creates, He preserves, and He destroys. Can we ever understand why He destroys? I say to the Divine Mother: 'O Mother, I do not need to understand. Please give me love for Thy Lotus Feet.' The aim of human life is to attain bhakti. As for other things, the Mother knows best. I have come to the garden to eat mangoes. What is the use of my calculating the number of trees, branches, and leaves? I only eat the mangoes; I don't need to know the number of trees and leaves."<br /><br />It's only our intellect that needs a framework to be built around karma but in reality none can understand the inscrutable power of the Self.<br /><br />The wheel of our prarabdha is capable of throwing us hither and thither. The only safe and unassailable place where it can never touch us is when we cling to the centre of that wheel - The lotus feet of the Lord.<br /><br />As Bhagavan says in Upadesa Undiyar, 10th verse, <br /><br />Abiding, having subsided in the place of rising [in one’s source, the real Self] – that is karma [desireless action] and bhakti [devotion], that is yoga [union with God] and jnana [true knowledge].<br />Suresh Lakshmanannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-30532853437691091612015-02-13T15:52:29.507+00:002015-02-13T15:52:29.507+00:00Beshwar, we can go on endlessly having doubts and ...Beshwar, we can go on endlessly having doubts and asking questions about free will and <i>karma</i> because we are <i>ajñānis</i> (that is, we are metaphysically ignorant), so our self-ignorant minds have no means of ascertaining the correct answer to any such question. But what is the point? Are such doubts and questions useful to us?<br /><br />The root of all our ignorance is our ignorance concerning what we ourself actually are. So long as we do not experience ourself as we actually are, whatever else we may believe we know is only ignorance (<i>ajñāna</i>). Therefore the only solution to all our ignorance is for us to experience ourself as we actually are, and hence the only useful question for us to ask ourself is ‘Who am I, who raise so many doubts and questions about other things?’<br /><br />Whatever Bhagavan taught us about free will and <i>karma</i> has only one purpose, namely to help us to investigate ourself and ascertain what we actually are. Therefore if we are wise we should accept whatever he taught us about them, and rather than wasting our time and energy raising endless doubts and questions about such trivial matters, we should focus all our interest and effort on trying to experience ourself as we actually are.<br /><br />Yes, it is true that both free will and <i>karma</i> are illusions, as is everything else other than ourself, because they are a product of the primal illusion, the ego. However, so long as the ego seems to be real, all its products likewise seem to be real, so we should use our illusory free will to investigate ourself and thereby destroy the primal illusion that we are this ego. In this connection, please read again verse 19 of <i>Uḷḷadu Nāṟpadu</i> and the explanation about it that I gave above in <a href="http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-karma-theory-as-taught-by-sri-ramana.html?showComment=1421177218928#c2790065803228613993" rel="nofollow">one of my previous replies</a> to you.Michael Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03460943269122289281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-66329789664412992092015-02-12T02:30:57.288+00:002015-02-12T02:30:57.288+00:00Michael,
Beautiful explanation of Upadesa Undiya...Michael, <br /><br />Beautiful explanation of Upadesa Undiyar starting verses on Karma. I pray you have the time to complete them fully as i can clearly see that it will come along the lines of your work with Sadhu Om on 'Arunachala Stuti Panchagam'<br /><br />If i may add, i think it would be useful to include 35, 36 verses of Aksharamanamalai that again emphasises that we be still - because that's the only place we are untouched by karma.Suresh Lakshmanannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-83605791534209265272015-01-14T19:22:36.711+00:002015-01-14T19:22:36.711+00:00More importantly, I have bring all this up about &...More importantly, I have bring all this up about "effort" is because I think it is an illusion for you to say we need effort according to our separate individual free will. <br /><br /><br />How free are we to do this or that? And particular shift our attention from this to that? As an individual, we have the appearance so have such a freedom, but since we don't chose our thoughts, which is easy to verify. If we could chose our thoughts, we could chose to not have any thoughts, or to have only happy thoughts, or thoughts of a certain thing, beautiful thoughts. So obviously we have no control over our thoughts. Therefore if you don't chose our thoughts, we don't chose the choosing thoughts that is going to shift the attention to A to B. We simply believe after the shift has taken place after we have chosen, as a separate individual. Where as in fact, the shift in self or any sort of any decisions that appeared was simply a cosmic event. And it makes sense even in the materialistic point of view. Where every thought that arises is a byproduct of the electro chemistry taking place in the brain. This brain is made of particles dancing together, that are entangled in a deeply collection with the rest of the particles in the universal. So whatever seems to happen locally, the creation of these thoughts or decision is in fact a cosmic convergence, even from the materialistic stand point. A cosmic convergence. So it is not a personal creation, it is not homemade as in this human factory we have here. There is no such thing as a human factory of thoughts. It's a nice hypothesis, but it does not have four legs to stand up. Beshwarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-52403009539971443822015-01-14T18:48:27.059+00:002015-01-14T18:48:27.059+00:00But aren't we still creating action by attendi...But aren't we still creating action by attending to ourself? (although it is the best thing we can do) Simply because we are not fully attending to the Self because it is still mixed with extra adjuncts? <br /><br />"Since our destiny or fate (prārabdha) will impel us to make whatever effort is required for us to experience what we are destined to experience (as Sri Ramana implied in the first sentence of this note), the actions of our mind, speech or body are driven by two forces, fate and free will, which may work at any moment either in harmony or in conflict with each other. Some of our actions may be impelled only by our fate, others may be impelled only by our free will, while yet others may be simultaneously impelled by both"<br /><br />I understand it can effect our mind so can it somehow impel us to use our mind for Self-inquiry? <br /><br />As Sri Bhagavan offered us another path such as Self-Surrender where we also think that we are not the doer, but why would he offer that when it would not lead us to the Self as you have said: <br /><br />"so in spite of our superficial belief in the idea that we are not the doer, at a deeper level we still believe that we are the doer." <br /><br />"Though we may think we are not the doer, we nevertheless experience ourself as the doer, so merely thinking or understanding that we are not the doer is not sufficient."Beshwarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-85092213084278082512015-01-14T12:36:45.052+00:002015-01-14T12:36:45.052+00:00Beshwar, in continuation of my previous comment, I...Beshwar, in continuation of my previous comment, I will now reply to the questions you ask in <a href="http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-karma-theory-as-taught-by-sri-ramana.html?showComment=1421197656613#c8484580143469620197" rel="nofollow">your latest comment</a>:<br /><br />Whatever we experience outwardly is our destiny, so whether we are rich or poor, living in a mansion or homeless, educated or uneducated, loved or despised, healthy or sick, long-lived or short-lived, in India, Africa, Europe or America, or whatever other external circumstances we may experience, they are all determined by our destiny, and we have no freedom to change any such things. However, we are free to like to change them and to try to change them, but whatever we may seem to achieve as a result of such efforts is actually just our destiny.<br /><br />We cannot escape what we are destined to experience, as you say, but that does not mean that we cannot desire and try to escape it. All it means is that however much we may try to escape it, our efforts will be in vain. This is the import of what Bhagavan wrote in the note for his mother.<br /><br />The only way we can escape what we are destined to experience is by investigating and experiencing what we really are, because we will thereby escape the illusory experience that we are an ego. Since destiny determines what this ego is to experience in this lifetime, we can escape its destiny only by escaping the ego itself. This is why Bhagavan often said that the only wise use of our freedom is to use it to turn within and thereby experience what we actually are.<br /><br />The limited free will of the ego is a reflection of the infinite freedom of our real self, which is infinitely free because nothing other than it actually exists, and hence there is nothing that could limit its freedom. However though we (as we really are) are infinitely free, we only use our infinite freedom just to be as we really are, because we are also infinitely wise, so we would never use our freedom to be anything else.<br /><br />Therefore, since we now seem to be something other than what we really are, we must infer that our seeming existence as such is merely an illusion, and that if we investigate ourself we will find that we have never actually been anything other than what we really are. This is why self-investigation (<i>ātma-vicāra</i>) alone is the solution to all our problems.Michael Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03460943269122289281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-49479289216523846422015-01-14T12:24:33.283+00:002015-01-14T12:24:33.283+00:00Beshwar, since the ego does not actually exist, it...Beshwar, since the ego does not actually exist, its destiny and free will also do not actually exist, but so long as the ego seems to exist (that is, so long as we experience ourself as a person, individual, body and mind), its destiny and free will likewise seem to exist, so destiny and free will are as real as the ego now seems to be.<br /><br />Fate and free will are a problem for us, but the root of this problem is only our ego, so we should concern ourself only with investigating this ego to find out whether or not it is what it now seems to be, and if we do so we need not concern ourself with questions about fate, free will or any of the numerous other problems that we face so long as we mistake ourself to be this ego.<br /><br />Because the ego is limited, its freedom to will and act (<i>iccha-kriya-svatantra</i>) is likewise limited, but it has at least sufficient freedom to investigate itself and thereby dissolve itself back into our real self, the source from which it appeared. Therefore we need not worry about the limits of our individual freedom, because we have enough freedom to achieve what should be our real aim, namely the dissolution of this illusory ego that we now seem to be.<br /><br />You mention ‘as long as I believe that I am not the doer’, but the ‘I’ that believes this is only the ego, which experiences itself as a body and mind, and that therefore experiences the actions done by the body and mind as if they were done by itself. Therefore, even if we believe the theory that we are not the doer, in practice we experience ourself as the doer, so in spite of our superficial belief in the idea that we are not the doer, at a deeper level we still believe that we are the doer.<br /><br />If we believe the theory that we are not the doer, that should prompt us to investigate ourself in order to experience what we really are. That is, since we now experience ourself as if we were the doer of actions done by mind, speech and body, believing that we are not the doer entails believing that we are not what we now seem to be, so it should motivate us to try to experience what we really are. Therefore the answer to your question ‘So long as I believe I am not the doer, does that mean I have nothing to worry about but only to attend to Self?’ is yes: trying to attend to ourself alone in order to experience what we really are should be our sole aim and concern.<br /><br />Likewise the answer to your question ‘So even though we think we are not the doer and understand that we are not doer, are you saying that even understanding it does not cut it?’ is yes. Though we may think we are not the doer, we nevertheless experience ourself as the doer, so merely thinking or understanding that we are not the doer is not sufficient. We need to actually experience ourself as we really are, because then only will we experience ourself as that which never does anything, since its nature is just to be.<br /><br />Therefore, as you say in the final paragraph of <a href="http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-karma-theory-as-taught-by-sri-ramana.html?showComment=1421193384583#c2259709250806465187" rel="nofollow">the first of your two most recent comments</a>, so long as we still experience ourself as a finite individual, we have a limited free will, and that free will will continue to exist so long as we experience ourself as an individual (that is, as anything other than the one infinite reality that we actually are).Michael Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03460943269122289281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-84845801434696201972015-01-14T01:07:36.613+00:002015-01-14T01:07:36.613+00:00Part 2.
"Turning our attention within in or...<br />Part 2. <br /><br />"Turning our attention within in order to experience ourself alone is not an action (karma), but only subsidence and complete cessation of all activity, so it is neither determined by nor can it be obstructed by our destiny (prārabdha)."<br /><br /><br />Can you give an example of what some things the body experience as a result of destiny? I’m having a hard time thinking what that means. Does that mean in terms if one gets rich, poor, homeless, businessman, etc? <br /><br />"but even then we are free to try to experience what we are not destined to experience and to avoid experiencing what we are destined to experience." <br /><br />I do not understand, what do you mean to avoid experiencing what we are destined to experience. I thought you said we cannot escape what we are destine to experience? <br /><br />I am curious as to what makes you say we have limited free will since we are still experience the ego-body-mind. So what does that mean when we do not experience our body-mind-ego anymore? No free will? Beshwarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-22597092508064651872015-01-13T23:56:24.583+00:002015-01-13T23:56:24.583+00:00Beautifully written. I have a clearer and better u...Beautifully written. I have a clearer and better understanding now. Just some questions to clear up. <br /><br />"When the ego is thus known to be non-existent, its fate and free will will also be known to be non-existent." <br /><br />Now does that indicate that there is no free will as I have stated earlier [from the Stand-point of the SELF?] as you on the other hand say that we DO have somewhat limited freedom ONLY because we still experience the ego [individual?] Though I have not experience my Self as I really am does it still count for me (whatever I'm to experience such as past karmas) as long as I believe that I am not the doer? So long as I believe I am not the doer, does that mean I have nothing to worry about but only to attend to Self? <br /><br /><br />"Since we experience ourself as this body and mind, and since they do actions, we experience their actions as if we were doing them. Therefore we cannot avoid having a sense of doership so long as we experience anything other than ourself (that is, anything other than the pure adjunct-free consciousness that we really are)." <br /><br />" We cannot avoid feeling that we are the doer so long as we experience ourself as a body and mind, which are the instruments that do actions."<br /><br />So even though we think we are not the doer and understand that we are not doer, are you saying that even understanding it does not cut it? Or are you saying that we are still a tad-bit the doer since we still experience other things other then ourselves.<br /><br />So in essence, to clear things up, are you saying that since we are yet still and individual (since we have not fully realize the Self) we have the limited free will? And free will has no choice but to exists so long as we are the individual? <br /><br /><br />Infinite gratitude, <br /><br />Beshwar <br /><br />Beshwarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-27900658032286139932015-01-13T19:26:58.928+00:002015-01-13T19:26:58.928+00:00In continuation of my previous comment in reply to...In continuation of <a href="http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-karma-theory-as-taught-by-sri-ramana.html?showComment=1421176615104#c4171946676183107016" rel="nofollow">my previous comment</a> in reply to Beshwar:<br /><br />Therefore fate and free will (also known as destiny and volition, which in Sanskrit are called respectively <i>vidhi</i> and <i>mati</i>, or <i>prārabdha</i> and <i>iccha-kriya-svatantra</i>) are the two driving forces that impel us to do action (<i>karma</i>), and it is not possible for us to determine to what extent each of these forces impels us to do any particular action that we may do (in some cases it will be one, in other cases the other, and in most cases a combination of both). However, we need not concern ourself trying to know whether fate or free will has made us do any action, because our sole aim should be to investigate our ego and thereby to distinguish ourself from all the adjuncts that we now mistake to be ourself. This is why Bhagavan says in verse 19 of <i>Uḷḷadu Nāṟpadu</i>:<br /><br />விதிமதி மூல விவேக மிலார்க்கே<br />விதிமதி வெல்லும் விவாதம் — விதிமதிகட்<br />கோர்முதலாந் தன்னை யுணர்ந்தா ரவைதணந்தார்<br />சார்வரோ பின்னுமவை சாற்று.<br /><br /><i>vidhimati mūla vivēka milārkkē<br />vidhimati vellum vivādam — vidhimatigaṭ<br />kōrmudalān taṉṉai yuṇarndā ravaitaṇandār<br />sārvarō piṉṉumavai sāṯṟu</i>.<br /><br /><b>பதச்சேதம்</b>: விதி மதி மூல விவேகம் இலார்க்கே விதி மதி வெல்லும் விவாதம். விதிமதிகட்கு ஓர் முதல் ஆம் தன்னை உணர்ந்தார் அவை தணந்தார்; சார்வரோ பின்னும் அவை? சாற்று.<br /><br /><b><i>Padacchēdam</i></b> (word-separation): <i>vidhi mati mūla vivēkam ilārkkē vidhi mati vellum vivādam. vidhi-matigaṭku ōr mudal ām taṉṉai uṇarndār avai taṇandār; sārvarō piṉṉum avai? sāṯṟu</i>.<br /><br /><b>English translation:</b> Argument about which wins, fate (<i>vidhi</i>) or free will (<i>mati</i>), is only for those who do not have discrimination (<i>vivēka</i>) about the root of fate and free will [namely the ego]. Those who have known themself [the ego], who is the one origin [or foundation] of fate and free will, have [thereby] removed [or separated from] them. Say, will they thereafter be associated with them?<br /><br />What Bhagavan refers to here as ‘விதி மதி மூலம்’ (<i>vidhi mati mūlam</i>), ‘the root of fate and free will’, is only the ego, for whom alone fate and free will exist, so விதி மதி மூல விவேகம் (<i>vidhi mati mūla vivēkam</i>) means discrimination about the ego — that is, the ability to distinguish oneself from the ego, which is what experiences fate and exercises free will. Likewise in the second sentence of this verse ‘விதிமதிகட்கு ஓர் முதல் ஆம் தன்னை’ (<i>vidhi-matigaṭku ōr mudal ām taṉṉai</i>), ‘oneself who is the one origin [or foundation] of fate and free will’, the word தன்னை (<i>taṉṉai</i>), ‘oneself’, refers only to the ego, which is the origin or foundation of fate and free will, so ‘விதிமதிகட்கு ஓர் முதல் ஆம் தன்னை உணர்ந்தார்’ (<i>vidhi-matigaṭku ōr mudal ām taṉṉai uṇarndār</i>), ‘those who have known themself, who is the one foundation of fate and free will’, means those who have experienced what they really are and who have thereby known that the ego is just an illusion or false appearance and hence does not actually exist as such. When the ego is thus known to be non-existent, its fate and free will will also be known to be non-existent.<br /><br />However, so long as the ego seems to exist, its fate and free will also seem to exist, and hence they seem to be just as real as it seems to be. Therefore the ego cannot justifiably deny the reality of fate and free will so long as it experiences itself as if it were real.<br /><br />When you try to assert that fate is real but free will is unreal, you are unnecessarily engaging in ‘விதி மதி வெல்லும் விவாதம்’ (<i>vidhi mati vellum vivādam</i>), ‘argument about which wins, fate or free will’, so you should recognise that such a dispute arises in you only because you mistake yourself to be the ego and therefore do not have ‘விதி மதி மூல விவேகம்’ (<i>vidhi mati mūla vivēkam</i>), ‘discrimination about the root of fate and free will’.Michael Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03460943269122289281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-41719466761831070162015-01-13T19:16:55.104+00:002015-01-13T19:16:55.104+00:00Beshwar, in your two comments above and in your la...Beshwar, in <a href="http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-karma-theory-as-taught-by-sri-ramana.html?%20showComment=1420744676102#c8948261963815445368" rel="nofollow">your two comments above</a> and in <a href="http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com/2014/12/our-aim-should-be-to-experience-ourself.html?%20showComment=1420745415314#c8753102297352034380" rel="nofollow">your latest comment</a> on another article, <a href="http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/our-aim-should-be-to-experience-ourself.html" rel="nofollow">Our aim should be to experience ourself alone, in complete isolation from everything else</a>, you continue to insist that we have no freedom. If that is what you want to believe, no amount of argument will persuade you to think otherwise.<br /><br />However, if you want to understand and believe what Bhagavan taught in this regard, you should accept that we do have limited freedom to will and act, and that the only wise use we can make of this freedom is to turn our attention inwards to try to experience ourself alone, as I tried to explain to you in my earlier three replies (<a href="http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com/2014/12/our-aim-should-be-to-%20experience-ourself.html?showComment=1420370340469#c3029587443120129822" rel="nofollow">here</a>, <a href="http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com/2014/12/our-aim-should-be-to-experience-ourself.html?%20showComment=1420549079186#c8698753777934969904" rel="nofollow">here</a> and <a href="http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com/2014/12/our-aim-should-be-to-%20experience-ourself.html?showComment=1420727991669#c1534128412671451644" rel="nofollow">here</a>).<br /><br />Turning our attention within in order to experience ourself alone is not an action (<i>karma</i>), but only subsidence and complete cessation of all activity, so it is neither determined by nor can it be obstructed by our destiny (<i>prārabdha</i>). According to Bhagavan, therefore, we are always free to turn selfwards to experience ourself alone.<br /><br />When we allow our attention to go out towards anything other than ourself, whatever we then experience is determined by our <i>prārabdha</i> (which is a selection the fruit of our past volitional actions that God has chosen for us to experience in the lifetime of our current body), but even then we are free to try to experience what we are not destined to experience and to avoid experiencing what we are destined to experience. By desiring and making such efforts to oppose our <i>prārabdha</i>, we are doing <i>āgāmya</i> (fresh <i>karma</i> done by our own free will), the fruit of which will be stored in our <i>sañcita</i> and will therefore be available to be selected by God for us to experience as part of our <i>prārabdha</i> in a future life.<br /><br />Moreover, whenever we desire to experience something that we happen to be destined to experience, we use our free will to try to experience it, so even though our <i>prārabdha</i> would anyway have made us make whatever effort is required for us to experience it, we are still doing <i>āgāmya</i>. Therefore we are doing <i>āgāmya</i> whenever we desire and make effort by our own volition to experience anything or avoid experiencing anything, whether that happens to be opposed to our <i>prārabdha</i> (in which case our efforts will fail) or to be in harmony with it (in which case our efforts will seem to succeed).<br /><br />In short, therefore, what Bhagavan taught us about free will is that we do have it, and that we can therefore use it either to turn within to experience ourself alone (in which case we will be refraining from doing any <i>karma</i>) or to try to experience or avoid experiencing anything else (in which case we will be doing fresh <i>karma</i>, the fruit of which may be selected by God for us to experience in any future life).<br /><br />(I will continue this reply in my next comment.)Michael Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03460943269122289281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-46029259819324780692015-01-08T19:18:34.540+00:002015-01-08T19:18:34.540+00:00Continuing..
1. "But we should 'try'...Continuing.. <br /><br />1. "But we should 'try' to avoid doing any other action (that is, any action impelled by our free will)" <br /><br />But sir, is that not even predestined itself, even down to thinking about itself is predestined. Therefore as you have stated "our prārabdha will impel us to do whatever actions of mind, speech or body are required to experience whatever we are destined to experience" we have no choice even if we wanted to attend to 'I' or not, it is certainly up to God's will. <br /><br />2. "So long as we are attending to anything other than ‘I’, our ego is active and will therefore inevitably be driven by its free will to do āgāmya, whereas when we attend only to ‘I’ the activity of our ego will subside, leaving us in our natural state of just silently being (mauṉamāy irukkai). Therefore the only effective and reliable means to remain without doing any āgāmya is to attend only to ‘I’." <br /><br />Sir, this is also not our choice but by the will of God as though it seems like we can attend to "I" whenever we catch ourself attending to something outwards, the thought itself is already predetermined which will forward us to doing our Self-inquiry which we think is our choice but it is destined for us to do so. <br /><br />Regarding to your comment to someone: " it is my ego with its own preferences and sense of obligation that is preventing me just being silent and surrendering to whatever Bhagavan now wants me to be doing. It is my free will trying to resist my fate." <br />preventing me just being silent and surrendering to whatever Bhagavan now wants me to be doing. It is my free will trying to resist my fate." <br /><br />Sir, how do you know what you are going through is not predetermined as you have stated " preventing me just being silent and surrendering to whatever Bhagavan now wants me to be doing. It is my free will trying to resist my fate." What if what you think you are suppose to be doing is exactly what has been preordain for you, and then from that contemplation that you think you should be doing something results in you experiencing what is preordained for you to experience?Beshwarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-89482619638154453682015-01-08T19:17:56.102+00:002015-01-08T19:17:56.102+00:00"Since the fruit of any āgāmya that we do now..."Since the fruit of any āgāmya that we do now will not be experienced by us during this lifetime, we cannot by any effort made now by our own free will change anything that we are destined to experience in our current life."<br /><br />From what you have stated, this mean that if one were to dissolve our doership this life, it is already predestined. So in the case of effortless work, one is bound to do whatever he does. He can do whatever he wants because whatever he does is already predestined.<br /><br />"What is never to happen will not happen whatever effort [one] makes [to make it happen];" <br /><br />As even with effort or without, you cannot avoid it whatever one will experience which would means you could not escape doing self-inquiry even if you wanted to, turning inwards will bound to happen. <br /><br />"what is to happen will not stop whatever obstruction [or resistance] [one] does [to prevent it happening]."<br /><br />this means dissolving the doership, if one was destine to, it would happened. If one was to turn inward, so to will it happen. <br /><br />"Therefore the only wise use we can make of our free will is to try to experience nothing other than ‘I’ by attending to ourself alone, thereby remaining indifferent to whatever we may or may not be destined to experience outwardly. Calmly and silently attending thus to ‘I’ alone is the state that he describes here as மௌனமாய் இருக்கை (mauṉamāy irukkai), ‘silently being’ or ‘being as silence’, which he says is நன்று (naṉḏṟu), ‘good’."<br /><br />But would you not say this is already predestined? Whatever event leading up to a point where one seems to make the choice that they are going to turn inwards have already been predestined, so turning inwards itself has already been predetermined. <br /><br />So when I say you can do whatever you want, well it is not even our choice, it may seem like it, whatever we think we are doing has already been predetermined. <br /><br />"Sri Ramana wrote for his mother is that our prārabdha will impel us to do whatever actions of mind, speech or body are required to experience whatever we are destined to experience, so we cannot avoid doing such actions but we should try to avoid doing any other action (that is, any action impelled by our free will), and the only way to avoid doing any such action is just to remain silent by attending only to ‘I’." <br />Beshwarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-25682310824945144742014-09-25T22:29:43.142+01:002014-09-25T22:29:43.142+01:00Thanks Michael for making clear that fundamental a...Thanks Michael for making clear that fundamental advice of Bhagavan about the functioning of our world drama.Josef Brucknernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-84526506096168467182014-09-25T19:45:59.557+01:002014-09-25T19:45:59.557+01:00Josef, in reply to your comment, ‘their their’ and...Josef, in reply to <a href="http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-karma-theory-as-taught-by-sri-ramana.html?showComment=1411667533679#c268758400688027320" rel="nofollow">your comment</a>, ‘their their’ and ‘there there’ are not English idioms but literal translations of the words that Bhagavan used in Tamil. In both cases the repetition of the word has a distributive function, signifying each individual one: thus ‘their their’ means ‘of each person’, and ‘there there’ means ‘in each place’ (or ‘in the heart of each person’).<br /><br />Regarding the typo you mention (‘existent’ instead of ‘extent’), another friend pointed it out the day after I posted this article here, so I corrected it immediately. Therefore if you still see ‘existent’, you can try refreshing the page in your browser, because you should then see ‘extent’.Michael Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03460943269122289281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-2687584006880273202014-09-25T18:52:13.679+01:002014-09-25T18:52:13.679+01:00Michael,
it is good that you gave a paraphrase of ...Michael,<br />it is good that you gave a paraphrase of the meaning of Sri Ramana's famous note to his mother at the spot of Pavalakundru in December 1898:<br />For my plain knowledge of the English Language it was some difficult to understand the meaning of the repetition of the words "there" and "their" in the first sentence ...God being there there[in the heart of each of them] will make [him or her] act.<br />And the same difficulty I had with the explanation 'According to their their prarabda, he who is for that being there there will cause to act'.<br />Also I could not understand immediately the meaning of the words...."which means 'being there there'(angu-angu-irundu)".<br /><br />In the penultimate paragraph you write about our outward-going desires called visaya-vasanas.<br />I think in the fourth line is a printing error:<br />The half-sentence beginning with "and to the existent" should be read "and to the extent to which we thus try try to be silent..... "Josef Brucknernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-79572168239914542522014-09-18T11:02:05.430+01:002014-09-18T11:02:05.430+01:00Edward, I'm the anonymous you refer to. In ret...Edward, I'm the anonymous you refer to. In retrospect, I feel I shouldn't have written what I wrote. Everyone has their trajectory of karma and what and whom they ask is for the spiritual benefit of all those involved in the discussion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-79386289148157049482014-09-17T20:10:27.651+01:002014-09-17T20:10:27.651+01:00Edward, I am always happy to reply to emails or co...Edward, I am always happy to reply to emails or comments asking about the practice of <i>ātma-vicāra</i> or any other aspect of Bhagavan’s teachings, so please do not feel you were bugging me. I just wish I had more time to do such work and also all the translation work that I would like to do. It all helps to keep my mind from straying too far away from self-attentiveness, which should be our principal aim and occupation.<br /><br />Regarding videos on my YouTube channel, <a href="https://www.youtube.com/user/SriRamanaTeachings" rel="nofollow">Sri Ramana Teachings</a>, last night I uploaded a new one: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuCjPrlzn10" rel="nofollow">2014-09-13 Ramana Maharshi Foundation UK: discussion with Michael James on annihilating the ego</a>.Michael Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03460943269122289281noreply@blogger.com