tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post544442022343531491..comments2023-10-16T13:06:42.360+01:00Comments on Happiness of Being: The Teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi: The logic underlying the practice of self-investigation (ātma-vicāra)Michael Jameshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03460943269122289281noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-10425317515959448022015-11-10T05:10:46.298+00:002015-11-10T05:10:46.298+00:00Q: What happens to the consciousness of a realized...Q: What happens to the consciousness of a realized one in sleep?<br /><br />M: Such a question arises only in the minds of the unrealized. A jnani has only one state, which is unbroken throughout the 24 hours, whether in what you call sleeping or waking. As a matter of fact, the majority of people are asleep, because they are not awake to the Self. In the deep sleep state we lay down our ego, our thoughts and our desires. If we could only do all this while we are conscious, we would realize the Self. The best form of dhyana or meditation is when it continues not merely while awake, but extends to dream and deep sleep states. The meditation must be so intense that there is not even room for the idea, 'I am meditating.' As waking and dreaming are fully occupied by the dhyana of such a person, deep sleep may be considered to be part of the dhyana.<br /><br />- Conscious Immortality, by Paul BruntonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-31822449058176166092015-11-06T11:09:25.741+00:002015-11-06T11:09:25.741+00:00Anonymus,
even the rare cases pass by and then we ...Anonymus,<br />even the rare cases pass by and then we have to be keenly attentive to prevent that the "temporary identifications" of the mind with the body/mind complex will gain the upper hand over our real self and cover over it catching us unawares.<br />But are we not permanent in the presence of own Jnana ?<br />It is an absolute disgrace that we allowed to degenerate to complete dull worms.Rattlesnakenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-21390358607434565032015-11-06T06:07:02.597+00:002015-11-06T06:07:02.597+00:00Staying passively attentive to the sense of I am -...Staying passively attentive to the sense of I am - excluding all thoughts - is the only effort one can make. Problem lies in locating the sense of I am in it's proper perspective. In most cases, the sense of I am is taken as a mental feeling. Which is the cause of failure(so to say) even after years of practice. One can never imagine(or bring into the ambit of experience) the state of pure I amness though it is ever present but clouded by the awareness of 'other' objects (non-self). In rare cases (especially in the presence of a Jnani) this 'place' gets exposed in it's pure form and you realize that your focus has been totally wrong. Only then one will realize that no effort is necessary in being that because that has been the case always irrespective of temporary identifications with the body/mind as the self.<br /><br />-M-Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-81347296862216975332015-11-06T02:43:28.169+00:002015-11-06T02:43:28.169+00:00Great post Michael. Just shared it on G+. Please j...Great post Michael. Just shared it on G+. Please join our google group as well if possible. Thanks and peace!Itinerant Yogihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16034487188217683702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-39358110804232026192015-11-02T18:38:26.673+00:002015-11-02T18:38:26.673+00:00Thank you Steve.
I have been going through Michael...Thank you Steve.<br />I have been going through Michael's blog articles from the very begining since I was first fortunate to find his blog. <br /><br />I am up to the 2008 "Experiencing God as he really Is" article.<br /><br />I will eventually get through all the artciles on effort you mention, I don't know when as I am a slow reader, not long found Bhagavan and am still very ignorant of his teaching.<br /><br /><br />This blog and all its contents is absolutely invaluable I am so blessed to have found it !!<br /><br />In appreciation Steve<br />All the best. <br />Bob Bob - Pnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-91862657630511826902015-11-02T12:34:30.035+00:002015-11-02T12:34:30.035+00:00Bob - P (and anyone else who might be interested),...Bob - P (and anyone else who might be interested), in the left-hand column of this page, under 'Index of Topics', you'll find the topic 'effort', which references 37 articles. Knock yourself out!Stevenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-1053046140953675802015-11-02T09:34:31.864+00:002015-11-02T09:34:31.864+00:00Thanks Sivanarul for your comments.
I do feel dro...<br />Thanks Sivanarul for your comments.<br /><br />I do feel dropping-effort is just the final step of a series of effort-based sadhaana. Yes as you say it has to be mature. You have to be convinced that it is the one last unopened door and you are ready to open it. <br /><br />So I would say in that state one has no other option to try except to drop-the-effort.<br /><br />Also I have heard from other Masters too that Surrender is the ultimate technique; if one can do it, its the easiest and likely fastest. But I think the ego [with its strong notion of free-will/ "I am the doer" vasana] will not let one to Surrender completely.<br /><br />And I believe both self-enquiry and Surrender merge finally and become indistinguishable [as stated by first two songs of ullathu-naarpathu]. <br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06192669722680179933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-73181770943334753722015-11-02T09:25:55.171+00:002015-11-02T09:25:55.171+00:00Hill Top,
You may once patiently read the entire ...Hill Top,<br /><br />You may once patiently read the entire essay, ‘Nan Yar?’ at http://www.happinessofbeing.com/nan_yar.html.<br /><br />As to the point till we have to continue self-investigation/self-remembrance, it is stated in paragraph 11, “ஒருவன் தான் சொரூபத்தை யடையும் வரையில் நிரந்தர சொரூப ஸ்மரணையைக் கைப்பற்றுவானாயின் அதுவொன்றே போதும்” [Michael’s translation: If one clings fast to uninterrupted svarūpa-smaraṇa[self-remembrance] until one attains svarūpa [one’s own essential self], that alone [will be] sufficient].<br /><br />Now, if we ask what is svarūpa, the definition of that is given in paragraph 6: “நான் என்னும் நினைவு கிஞ்சித்து மில்லா விடமே சொரூபமாகும்” [Michael’s translation: The place [space or state] devoid of even the slightest thought called ‘I’ is svarūpa [our ‘own form’ or essential self].<br /><br />The investigation ends when one attains svarūpa. Sri Ramana is nowhere talks about 'calling-off-search'. Now you may please decide for yourself what is to be done.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-183861095302902682015-11-02T08:41:43.024+00:002015-11-02T08:41:43.024+00:00Hi all,
I do find the quote of Bhagavan on effort ...Hi all,<br />I do find the quote of Bhagavan on effort [muyarchi] in question 20 of 'Nan yar?' where He says God/Guru cannot bring about realization; but each one through his/her own effort following Guru's advice has to reach. <br />My point is there may be a time when we should call-off-the-search; because this may be the last hurdle to jump [see the mind will lose its job totally if it's told that it's not needed any more -- when effort is happening, the mind has a reason for its existence].<br /><br />I do remember Bhagavan did say about past-birth; but I think it may be a tailored reply to a specific questioner (based on his/her maturity) - I think it will be safe for us to rely on his teachings only based on formal texts/works by Him (like nan-yar, ullathu-narpathu and other works].<br /><br />The main reason I raise this ending-effort is that it may give someone clue on where they are stuck and/or can confirm my own understanding .. eg if I receive a very valid counter-point. I do believe whether one does 1 second or 100 year sadhaana is purely based on powers outside the finite-ego; and each ego is just a remote-controlled puppet [which is first made to believe it has free-will and then made to do sadhana :)]<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06192669722680179933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-29897542037172815932015-11-02T07:51:23.260+00:002015-11-02T07:51:23.260+00:00It is my understanding that effort is only related...It is my understanding that effort is only related to us not abiding as what we are and instead attending to things other than ourself ... which does take effort. <br /><br />I hope Michael / someone more knowledgable than me clarifies here but If I understand rightly then turning inward and abiding as what we are or investigating earnestly what we are requires no action/ effort? Along with surrendering our false illusory knowing counciousness requires no effort. It only appears an effort from our own limited view. <br /><br />Mouna even if Sivanarul searches and finds no evidence to support your below statement. <br /><br />[Bhagavan himself said that his self-realization was because of his continuous efforts on atma-vichara in other lifetimes, that’s why his level of ripeness in this one.]<br /><br />It does make perfect sense to me even if he didn't actually say it as it doesn't conflict with his teaching. Thank you for sharing.<br /><br />In appreciation. <br />Bob Bob - Pnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-85888784505466862672015-11-02T07:01:08.301+00:002015-11-02T07:01:08.301+00:00Hill Top,
Please go ahead and just call off the s...Hill Top,<br /><br />Please go ahead and just call off the search right now, if you think it is not for you (no books, no forums, no practice etc.). What happens to you <i>after</i> that will be interesting to see. More interesting will be to see for yourself <i>how</i> you deal with it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-53389688296315505402015-11-02T03:39:30.822+00:002015-11-02T03:39:30.822+00:00Taken from:
http://sri-ramana-maharshi.blogspot.i...Taken from: <br />http://sri-ramana-maharshi.blogspot.in/2008/04/revisions-to-spiritual-instruction.html<br /><br />"jnana is the annihilation of the mind in which it is made to assume the form of the Self through the constant practice of dhyana or enquiry (vichara). The extinction of the mind is the state in which there is a cessation of all efforts. Those who are established in this state never swerve from their true state. The terms ‘silence’ (mouna) and ‘remaining still’ (summa iruttal) refer to this state alone."<br /><br />"Is the state of ‘being still’ a state involving effort or effortless?<br /><br />It is not an effortless state of indolence. All mundane activities which are ordinarily called effort are performed with the aid of a portion of the mind and with frequent breaks. But the act of communion with the Self (atma vyavahara) or remaining still inwardly is perfect effort, which is performed with the entire mind and without break.<br /><br />Maya (delusion or ignorance) which cannot be destroyed by any other act is completely destroyed by this perfect effort, which is called ‘silence’ (mouna)."R Viswanathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/18066293987969833262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-56566025628629031512015-11-02T03:10:03.731+00:002015-11-02T03:10:03.731+00:00Sivanarulji, Pranams again
I shall also post it i...Sivanarulji, Pranams again<br /><br />I shall also post it if I come across some<br />quote to sustain this position.<br /><br />The closest I came making a quick search was an interesting interview of David Godman. (http://davidgodman.org/interviews/al1.shtml)<br />Although not Bhagavan's words, here is what he had to say regarding the topic:<br /><br />"The disciples of Sri Ramana I have been with, such as Lakshmana Swamy and Papaji, have all said that spiritual effort in past lives is carried forward, making it possible for enlightenment to happen relatively quickly in the final birth. When I asked Lakshmana Swamy why he had realized the Self so quickly in this life, he said that he had finished his work in previous lives, and Papaji said he had memories of being a yogi in South India in his previous life. <br /> Sri Ramana never talked about his previous lives, although he did concede once that he must have had a Guru in some other life. I personally feel that he completed all his spiritual work in some other body and arrived in his final birth in a state of such utter purity and readiness that enlightenment came to him virtually unasked while he was still in his teens. "<br />Mounahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02416580298727681711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-79212416445255696502015-11-02T02:46:57.246+00:002015-11-02T02:46:57.246+00:00Mounaji,
Thanks for the reply. Too bad, I was rea...Mounaji,<br /><br />Thanks for the reply. Too bad, I was really hoping that Bhagavan did make that down to earth statement. I will look through Talks and Day by Day and see if I can find it. I hold the exact same view you quoted whether Bhagavan said it explicitly or not. Otherwise there is no explanation as to how one could do vichara that intensely and have the entire Sadhana over in just a minute. Sivanarulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-35577061766967696202015-11-02T02:35:32.060+00:002015-11-02T02:35:32.060+00:00Dear Sivanarul,
I must concede regarding the two ...Dear Sivanarul,<br /><br />I must concede regarding the two points you made.<br />The first one, I can't search all Bhagavan bibliography (or remember where) to sustain my claim that he actually said that his realization was due to efforts in past lifetimes, even if it was implied.<br /><br />The second regarding "call off the search", I also agree with what you said. I was ventilating my own thoughts rather than quoting some valuable sources.<br /><br />Thanks<br />MMounahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02416580298727681711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-89038412594483615272015-11-02T01:01:50.246+00:002015-11-02T01:01:50.246+00:00Mounaji,
“Bhagavan himself said that his self-rea...Mounaji,<br /><br />“Bhagavan himself said that his self-realization was because of his continuous efforts on atma-vichara in other lifetimes, that’s why his level of ripeness in this one.”<br /><br />Vanakkam. Do you remember where Bhagavan has said this? In the literature I have read, Bhagavan usually dismisses questions about previous lifetimes, by asking back the questioner to find out whether this lifetime is real. Your above quote is from a very conventional point of view (and more to my level :-)). Hence it would be nice to know where Bhagavan quoted it.<br /><br />“There is a trend in western advaita movements to "call off the search”, but that message was misunderstood by many. Call off the search means to call it off for objects other than yourself, but continue the one (that at this point may not be called search anymore), that lovingly and tenaciously, try to unmask the ego, that in the end will be understood to be non-existent..”<br /><br />I don’t think calling off the search in Neo Advaita movement is misunderstood either by the proponents or followers. They truly believe the “end” to be the “start” also. Since the Self is always realized, whether the ego is alive or dead, and the ego is finally found to be non-existent anyways, a strong intellectual understanding of it can make one believe that there is nothing to search and no one doing the search. That which is not real in the beginning or end was never real in the middle also. I am just stating the rationale used by the Neo Advaita movement, without any judgement.<br />Sivanarulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-78302326093528516732015-11-01T23:58:54.267+00:002015-11-01T23:58:54.267+00:00Hilltop,
Bhagavan himself said that his self-real...Hilltop,<br /><br />Bhagavan himself said that his self-realization was because of his continuous efforts on atma-vichara in other lifetimes, that’s why his level of ripeness in this one.<br /><br />He also said that as long as vishaya vasanas are there we need to continue making efforts.<br /><br />There is a trend in western advaita movements to "call off the search”, but that message was misunderstood by many. Call off the search means to call it off for objects other than yourself, but continue the one (that at this point may not be called search anymore), that lovingly and tenaciously, try to unmask the ego, that in the end will be understood to be non-existent..<br /><br />Summa iru means abidance in what is, but is not an action. Turning our mind inwards it is, and it is an ego action, and it is this action that is called the burning stick that has to be discarded in the fire as well.<br /><br />But also I understand your concerns, and they are well founded since no action can bring about self-realization, it can only take us there where the inner guru takes over for the final blow. But all efforts are necessary nevertheless, no matter how non-existent they might be.<br /><br />M.Mounahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02416580298727681711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-8151250603621268412015-11-01T19:45:34.125+00:002015-11-01T19:45:34.125+00:00Hill Top,
“a case of peaceful/graceful giving up;...Hill Top,<br /><br />“a case of peaceful/graceful giving up; surrendering.<br />[I think Gautama felt this when he sat down under the bodhi tree after i think 6 years of intense effort and realized nothing worked. He then instantly arrived.]”<br /><br />I think your concern is valid and I really like the way you express it as “a case of peaceful/graceful giving up; surrendering”. Since Surrender is my primary Sadhana, it resonates very well with me. But here is the rub. There is the beginner’s surrender (like mine) versus the fully ripe person’s surrender (Odum Semponnum Okaway Nookuvar, Avar Kaydum Akkamoom Ketta Pirivinar, they look at clay and gold the same, they treat poverty and wealth the same). I do not see poverty and wealth the same. Such being the case, stopping Sadhana, by me, would not be wise. <br /><br />The surrender has to mature (by effort – which could mean repeatedly taking everything that happens in life, as the will of Ishvara (Irai Pani Nittral)). Once it matures to a point (as decided by grace), then your concern comes into play. For you, if you think you have arrived at that juncture, and believe that grace itself is indicating as such to you, then “a case of peaceful/graceful giving up; surrendering” sounds really wonderful.<br /><br />In the case of Gautama Buddha, for him to “realize” that nothing worked, the 6 years of intense effort was necessary. So the 6 years of intense effort was the cause and nothing working was the effect that led to final absorption. <br /><br />I often read in Spiritual circles, the guru telling how all other Sadhana is more or less a waste of time and the only thing that matters is what finally helped the guru. The key point missed here is that for the final thing to have helped the guru, all other Sadhana paved the way. It is like telling that only college studies matters, since it is the only thing that offers the final degree. Yes that may be true, but to do college, one needs to start at Kindergarden and finish high school first.<br />Sivanarulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-59102883519256035022015-11-01T18:29:43.411+00:002015-11-01T18:29:43.411+00:00Mouna,
My concern is one may be prolonging the re...Mouna,<br /><br />My concern is one may be prolonging the realization just because of his/her effort. While atma-vichara may be [likely 'is' since stated so by Bhagavan] necessary to reach the goal; it may not be necessary to be practiced continuously for a long time. Surely I don't see a reason why it should be done for years or even months. In Bhagavan's case, I think it happened in just a few seconds [in his near-death/death experience].<br /><br />It's like doing say 12 hours internet research every day on how to get out of internet addiction. Or continuously searching and watching youtube videos on how to stop watching youtube videos. Each video can give more fascinating way to stop watching (various spiritual sadhanas on how to get out mind) -- none saying that you need to get out of your chair.<br /><br />Another well known analogy is trying to clear up a bucket of muddy water by stirring with hand; as long as hand is inside, the water never becomes clear. We just need to get the hand out and be still and watch.<br /><br />I think the 'end of what' answer could be 'end of our effort' -- a case of peaceful/graceful giving up; surrendering.<br />[I think Gautama felt this when he sat down under the bodhi tree after i think 6 years of intense effort and realized nothing worked. He then instantly arrived.]<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06192669722680179933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-39701840844203856062015-11-01T17:34:40.454+00:002015-11-01T17:34:40.454+00:00Hilltop, Pranams
"Even Bhagavan said the &#...Hilltop, Pranams <br /><br />"Even Bhagavan said the 'who am i' is lost at the end..."<br /><br />Agreed, but at the end of what? Think about it...<br /><br />M.Mounahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02416580298727681711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-414338432841687492015-11-01T17:17:45.544+00:002015-11-01T17:17:45.544+00:00Thank you very much for posting this article Micha...Thank you very much for posting this article Michael. As usual it was extremely helpful to read. <br />I am so thankful I have met you.<br />In appreciation. <br />Bob - P - <br /><br />Bob - Pnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-24516004075151081832015-11-01T16:50:22.187+00:002015-11-01T16:50:22.187+00:00Thanks so much for the excellent article, Sri Mich...Thanks so much for the excellent article, Sri Michael James. I for one genuinely believe that your admission that you have not succeeded fully in achieving the goal despite forty years of practising Atma Vichara, is actually made out of compassion to carry persons like me along, who is into this path for much much shorter duration. <br /><br />It would be beneficial for all to read again this previous article of Sri Michael James:<br />http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.in/2009/04/how-to-start-practising-atma-vichara.html<br /><br />While the whole article is helpful, the following sentences from this article appealed to me as being relevant to the comments posted for the present article. <br /><br />"Ātma-vichāra is not looking at any thought other than our primal thought ‘I’, which thinks all other thoughts." <br /><br />"All other thoughts are anātma (non-self), anya (other than ourself) and jaḍa (non-conscious)"<br /><br />"Of all the things that we think or imagine, the root is only our thinking thought ‘I’, which is our mind, the ephemeral consciousness that always experiences itself as ‘I am this body, a person called so-and-so’."<br /><br />"Everything — every thought, word and deed — is done only by this same thinking ‘I’. Even though physical actions may appear to be done by our body, and words may appear to be spoken by our voice, our body and voice are both only instruments by which our mind acts. All bodily actions and words originate from our thoughts, and those thoughts are all thought only by ‘I’, the primal thought, which is our thinking mind."<br /><br />"Yes, that which makes effort to see itself, the false thinking ‘I’, is only our mind, which is nothing other than this thinking ‘I’ itself. Our real being ‘I’ always knows itself perfectly clearly, because its nature is absolutely pure self-consciousness, so it does not need to make any effort to practice ātma-vichāra. That which needs to make effort to know itself as it really is is only our mind, the false thinking ‘I’."<br /><br />"Grace is always abundantly available in our heart, where it shines clearly as our real consciousness, ‘I am’, but to benefit from it fully we must surrender ourself to it entirely by making our attention ahamukham (turning it to face selfwards) and thereby subsiding within."<br /><br />"Grace is certainly doing its part, as it always has and always will, so it is up to us to do our part by surrendering ourself to it, attending to it exclusively and thereby allowing it to swallow us in the perfect clarity of pure self-consciousness, which is its true form. The more we persevere in our effort to attend only to self, the more clearly the light of grace will shine in our heart as ‘I am’, and the more it will thereby enkindle our love to be ever self-attentive."R Viswanathan https://www.blogger.com/profile/18066293987969833262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-83076843488668000282015-11-01T15:23:05.768+00:002015-11-01T15:23:05.768+00:00Hill Top
How do we reach a state where 'just...Hill Top<br /><br /><i> How do we reach a state where 'just be' are not just words?</i><br /><br /> The way is to persevere in self-attention; eventually we will experience ourself and the question will be 'answered' through direct experience.<br /><br />As you say, the effort will drop when it drops, and the ego indeed has no control over when effort need to stop; the only useful occupation that the ego can engage in <i>now</i> is to exclusively seek its source. That's what Bhagavan advises us to do, and he does attests to that grace will eventually consume us whole. Meanwhile, one has to persevere in the path shown by the guru.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-24839359600776903542015-11-01T14:49:50.538+00:002015-11-01T14:49:50.538+00:00"Even Bhagavan said the 'who am i' is..."Even Bhagavan said the 'who am i' is lost at the end -- 'pinanchudu thadi pol' [like the stick used to burn a corpse ..is also dropped into the fire]."<br /><br />Yes, Hill Top, that's from Nan Yar? (Who Am I?), but Bhagavan said a bit more than that. Stevenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-55579159371967736532015-11-01T13:55:38.351+00:002015-11-01T13:55:38.351+00:00Steve, Anonymous,
yes, true what you are saying. ...Steve, Anonymous,<br /><br />yes, true what you are saying. How do we reach the state where 'just be' are not just words?<br />The effort needs to be dropped; its' like a catch-22 situation.<br /><br />Even Bhagavan said the 'who am i' is lost at the end -- 'pinanchudu thadi pol' [like the stick used to burn a corpse ..is also dropped into the fire].<br /><br />From what I see, the effort will drop when it drops; I don't think ego has any control over when it drops. It's That's grace when this drops. again leading to Self-Surrender.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06192669722680179933noreply@blogger.com