tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post4878827305902183739..comments2023-10-16T13:06:42.360+01:00Comments on Happiness of Being: The Teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi: Is there more than one way in which we can investigate and know ourself?Michael Jameshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03460943269122289281noreply@blogger.comBlogger278125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-38663153745797482952016-11-02T11:00:24.554+00:002016-11-02T11:00:24.554+00:00Shea Kang,
and what shall we do now ?Shea Kang,<br />and what shall we do now ?little thingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-13097434559596611862015-12-15T04:02:28.893+00:002015-12-15T04:02:28.893+00:00Michael, thanks for the lucid explanation about lu...Michael, thanks for the lucid explanation about lucid dreaming.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-9811067616877302092015-12-15T00:38:03.975+00:002015-12-15T00:38:03.975+00:00Wittgenstein,
thank you for taking a lot of effort...Wittgenstein,<br />thank you for taking a lot of effort over commenting all my statements. I will consider the recommended verses of Ulladu Narpadu as well as Michael‘s book ‚Happiness and the Art of Being‘(HAB) as soon as possible. <br />As you say : Attending to the ever accessible 'I' is an absolute unavoidable necessity.Kambysesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-70705690759877012712015-12-14T21:58:56.178+00:002015-12-14T21:58:56.178+00:00Sivanarul,
thanks again for your comments.
The ego...Sivanarul,<br />thanks again for your comments.<br />The ego not only does not prefer differentiation between real and unreal<br />but prefers clearly the unreal. <br />Everyday is our last day.<br />If I would have had the wisdom of Sri Ramana I would not have to come physically on earth. <br />If I would not have spent the years before today in my way of experience I would not be able to relate to Arunachala Ramana today. <br />Regarding the Buddhist tradition of contemplations of death I want to tell you that in my opinion death will come only to the ego and its appendage.<br />How can 'I am' ever die ?Kambysesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-67716647001849141882015-12-14T21:11:19.079+00:002015-12-14T21:11:19.079+00:00Mouna,
Mouna is thinking and hallucinating about t...Mouna,<br />Mouna is thinking and hallucinating about the phantom ego plying its dreadful trade.<br />It's time that an end was put to the terrorizing ego.<br />Or is it just a dream ?<br />Find out, find out, find out...sleepwalker !Sleepwalkernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-8032343983877972012015-12-14T20:47:59.931+00:002015-12-14T20:47:59.931+00:00Michael,
All hell has broken loose:
I am dreaming ...Michael,<br />All hell has broken loose:<br />I am dreaming that I am awake.<br />I am dreaming that I am dreaming.<br />I am dreaming that I am sleeping.<br />God only knows what I am really are.<br />I am dreaming that I am God.<br />Oh Arunachala, is there any hope for me ?Sleepyheadnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-28795507076882942412015-12-14T19:10:21.673+00:002015-12-14T19:10:21.673+00:00Anonymous, in reply to your question about ‘lucid ...Anonymous, in reply to <a href="http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com/2015/11/is-there-more-than-one-way-in-which-we.html?commentPage=2#c4267840844589979080" rel="nofollow">your question</a> about ‘lucid dreaming’, a so-called ‘lucid dream’ is just a dream in which one has an idea ‘this is a dream’. Even now in our present state we can have such an idea, but though this means that we are doubting the reality of our present state, it still seems to us to be real so long as we are experiencing it, and if we found that our life as a body was suddenly in danger, we would be afraid as much (or almost as much) as we would have been if we had no such idea. Likewise in any other dream, whatever we are then experiencing would seem to be real to us even if we had an idea that it is just a dream.<br /><br />In any dream, whether ‘lucid’ or otherwise, we experience ourself as a body, and so long as we experience ourself thus, that body will inevitably seem to be real (because it seems to be ourself, and we are undoubtedly real, albeit not necessarily as whatever we currently seem to be), so since that body is part of a world, that world will also seem to us to be real. We may think that it is just a dream, but so long as we are experiencing it it would nevertheless seem to be real.<br /><br />The only difference between a ‘non-lucid dream’ and a ‘lucid dream’ is that whereas in the former we are dreaming that we are awake, in the latter we are dreaming that we are dreaming. In both cases we are dreaming, and so long as we are dreaming we are not experiencing what is actually real, which is only ourself as we really are.<br /><br />Whatever we may dream, we are deceiving ourself, because we can dream only when we experience ourself as this ego, and this ego is not what we actually are. Therefore what we dream and whether our dream is ‘lucid’ or otherwise really does not matter, because it is all a delusion, and hence rather than concerning ourself with any dream we should concern ourself only with trying to find out what we (who now seem to be experiencing this dream) actually are.Michael Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03460943269122289281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-24255615554826505082015-12-14T16:10:46.295+00:002015-12-14T16:10:46.295+00:00Ego creates gods and gurus and then asks for fusio...Ego creates gods and gurus and then asks for fusion and guidance.<br />Ego creates birth and death and then reincarnation to sustain its flow.<br />Ego creates time and space to be some-thing and some-where and then creates theories to escape its own grasp.<br />Ego creates a windowless and doorless room for itself and then feels trapped.<br />Ego creates dreamy dreams and a waking dream and even a sleep-state without dreams where it thinks it is not there and then can’t imagine anything else.<br />Ego creates lies, truths and what lies between them, opinions and then talks and stays silent, writes and reads.<br />Ego creates a body and then feels limited.<br />Ego names itself maya/i-thought/samsara/mind and then tries to investigate itself.<br />Ego conceives theories that even state that ego never existed in the first place.<br /><br />Ego IS everything, every thing. <br />Its own hallucination...Mounahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02416580298727681711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-88864714754748896682015-12-14T13:14:33.013+00:002015-12-14T13:14:33.013+00:00Michael,
thank you for your comment which did clar...Michael,<br />thank you for your comment which did clarify the matter of 'experiencing the non-existence of the ego' along the asked questions sufficiently.<br />Therefore nothing should prevent the clear experience of ourself as what alone exists. Now come on clear awareness and solve that mysterious shadowy ego-phantom.<br />Stop - in your view there is nothing to solve because nothing but you has ever existed.<br />How could I ever allow the illusion that you seem to be in the shadow of a never existing phantom ?Kambysesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-68536006612848168912015-12-14T12:16:17.956+00:002015-12-14T12:16:17.956+00:00Kambyses, regarding the questions you ask in one o...Kambyses, regarding the questions you ask in <a href="http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com/2015/11/is-there-more-than-one-way-in-which-we.html?commentPage=2#c7176685532221982255" rel="nofollow">one of your comments</a> about experiencing the non-existence of the ego, obviously the ego cannot experience its own non-existence, so what is sometimes described as ‘experiencing the non-existence of the ego’ is just experiencing that we alone exist, and what experiences this is only ourself as we actually are.<br /><br />That is, when we as this ego investigate ourself sufficiently keenly, the illusion that we are this ego will dissolve forever, and what will then remain is only ourself as we actually are. As we actually are, we never experience anything other than ourself, because we alone actually exist, so in the clear view of our actual self no ego has ever existed at all. This clear experience of ourself as what alone exists is what is therefore described as ‘experiencing the non-existence of the ego’.<br /><br />Obviously our actual self does not think ‘there is no ego’ or ‘the ego is non-existent’, because what it is aware of is only itself and nothing else whatsoever, but since it is so clearly aware of itself as what alone exists, that amounts to being aware that neither the ego nor anything else has ever existed.Michael Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03460943269122289281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-21951527263024357632015-12-14T10:09:57.593+00:002015-12-14T10:09:57.593+00:00****{Yes, anonymous, I agree with Swami Vivekanand...****{Yes, anonymous, I agree with Swami Vivekananda that life is momentary. Therefore we should not waste our time and energy by thinking about unnecessary things, but put in maximum efforts in self-investigation. Only this self-investigation can reveal our true nature to us, and make us free. Regards.}****<br /><br />I personally agree with this, I think it so true, thank you Sanjay. <br /><br />My own personal opinion right or wrong on lucid dreaming is as long as we experience dualism and are the perceiver of things that seem other than our self waking, dream, lucid dreaming, OBE they could all be placed in the same category no matter how wonderful some may seem. As long as we experience our self as the perceiver we must investigate earnestly what this perceiver is.<br /><br />I remember reading somewhere that we must stay on the train to the final destination and not get off before we arrive no matter how wonderful it may seem.<br /><br />Personally speaking if I were to experience a lucid dream again out of blue ( I don't try to) I would try my best to investigate as best I could who is experiencing this lucid dream, Unfortunately I may find I wake up (this happened before) ... and so on it goes.<br /><br />In appreciation <br />Bob<br />Bob - Pnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-68283673068147675132015-12-14T07:39:33.580+00:002015-12-14T07:39:33.580+00:00Sanjay, appreciate that - thanks| Not so convinced...Sanjay, appreciate that - thanks| Not so convinced| Will wait for Michael's reply|Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-37625056628095170662015-12-14T07:28:00.706+00:002015-12-14T07:28:00.706+00:00Anonymous, you ask Michael, 'Only after waking...Anonymous, you ask Michael, 'Only after waking from a dream do we recognise that it was not waking but just a dream. How do you explain lucid dreaming?' <br /><br />If I am not wrong, lucid dreams are supposed to be dreams in which we recognise that we are dreaming. Even if we dream, and in this particular dream we recognise that we are dreaming, it will still be a dream, and will not be essentially any different from any other type of dream. Any state in which our ego is functioning is a state of dream. This could be the simplest way to understand dream. Therefore our present so-called waking state is very much a dream. Regards. <br />Sanjay Lohiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02384912997886218824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-42678408445899790802015-12-14T07:10:07.725+00:002015-12-14T07:10:07.725+00:00Michael,
/**
Only after waking from a dream do we...Michael,<br /><br />/**<br />Only after waking from a dream do we recognise that it was not waking but just a dream.<br />**/<br /><br />How do you explain lucid dreaming?<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-27986874416661216842015-12-14T06:59:36.464+00:002015-12-14T06:59:36.464+00:00Yes, anonymous, I agree with Swami Vivekananda tha...Yes, anonymous, I agree with Swami Vivekananda that life is momentary. Therefore we should not waste our time and energy by thinking about unnecessary things, but put in maximum efforts in self-investigation. Only this self-investigation can reveal our true nature to us, and make us free. Regards. Sanjay Lohiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02384912997886218824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-40008204880797942952015-12-14T03:06:21.852+00:002015-12-14T03:06:21.852+00:00Even for Bhagavan its the fear of death that made ...Even for Bhagavan its the fear of death that made him inquire into his true nature. <br /><br />Swami Vivekananda on the transient nature of life<br />/**<br />Life is but momentary, whether you have the knowledge of an angel or the ignorance of an animal. Life is but momentary, whether you have the poverty of the poorest man in rags or the wealth of the richest living person. Life is but momentary, whether you are a downtrodden man living in one of the big streets of the big cities of the West or a crowned Emperor ruling over millions. Life is but momentary, whether you have the best of health or the worst. Life is but momentary whether you have the most poetical temperament or the most cruel. There is but one solution of life, says the Hindu, and that solution is what they call God and religion. If these be true, life becomes explained, life becomes bearable, becomes enjoyable. Otherwise, life is but a useless burden. That is our idea, but no amount of reasoning can demonstrate it; it can only make it probable, and there it rests. The highest demonstration of reasoning that we have in any branch of knowledge can only make a fact probable, and nothing further. The most demonstrable facts of physical science are only probabilities, not facts yet. Facts are only in the senses. Facts have to be perceived, and we have to perceive religion to demonstrate it to ourselves. We have to sense God to be convinced that there is a God. We must sense the facts of religion to know that they are facts. Nothing else, and no amount of reasoning, but our own perception can make these things real to us, can make my belief firm as a rock.<br />**/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-19386551667330044602015-12-13T23:02:21.201+00:002015-12-13T23:02:21.201+00:00Kambyses,
In case you are interested, these are t...Kambyses,<br /><br />In case you are interested, these are the 9 contemplations of death in the Buddhist tradition (that can help in Withdrawal)<br /><br />https://www.upaya.org/dox/Contemplations.pdf<br /><br />Summary:<br />1. All of Us Will Die Sooner or Later<br />2. Your Life Span Is Decreasing Continuously<br />3. Death Will Come Whether You Are Prepared or Not<br />4. Your Life Span, Like That of All Living Beings, Is Not Fixed<br />5. Death Has Many Causes<br />6. Your Body Is Fragile and Vulnerable<br />7. Your Loved Ones Cannot Keep You from Death<br />8. At the Moment of Your Death, Your Material Resources Are of No Use to You<br />9. Your Own Body Cannot Help You at the Time of Your Death<br />Sivanarulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-89083111807777086602015-12-13T22:16:54.181+00:002015-12-13T22:16:54.181+00:00Kambyses,
“To withdraw the mind from the senses a...Kambyses,<br /><br />“To withdraw the mind from the senses and away from everything that has nothing to do with our responsibilities is already a task occupying a whole life”<br /><br />I agree that it is not an easy task and for some of us it could be a whole life (or perhaps many lives). But if one preserves, in spite of repeated failures over several years/decades of trying, a time does come when the futility of engaging the mind with senses (other than for what is necessary) is clearly seen and the withdrawal begins. Initially the withdrawal is slow. But participation in Satsang (like this blog or other relevant blogs or actual physical satsang), repeated discrimination between real and unreal and the contemplation that physical death can come anytime, creates a sense of urgency which makes the withdrawal faster. That is my experience anyway.<br /><br />The Buddhist meditative contemplation on death can be a really powerful tool to facilitate this withdrawal. It basically involves meditating on your last day on earth and looking back at your life and scoring yourself how you spent the years/decades before it. What would you have done differently, if you had the wisdom years before that you have on your last day? <br />Sivanarulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-53481632853945742122015-12-13T21:39:09.352+00:002015-12-13T21:39:09.352+00:00Sivanarul,
thanks for your reply. As long as we ex...Sivanarul,<br />thanks for your reply. As long as we experience the world as otherness I think that we are better advised to fulfill our tasks in the world although it may be not really exist in the view of Jnana. To withdraw the mind from the senses and away from everything that has nothing to do with our responsibilities is already a task occupying a whole life. Feeling a need to get the mind really focused in just our search for truth is surely not backing the wrong horse but a suitable initial position to get the ego severly starved even though according the wise Sri Ramana Arunachala paradoxically the ego does actually not exist.<br />As a shoot of Ishvara you will be guided by your having every trust in the guidance of Ishvara.Kambysesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-71766855322219822552015-12-13T20:30:01.690+00:002015-12-13T20:30:01.690+00:00Who ?,
thanks for replying.
Sorry that I missed to...Who ?,<br />thanks for replying.<br />Sorry that I missed to write the word „happen“ between the words „simultaneously“ and „with“ in the initial part.<br />Why should we not be fully aware of the moment of appearance and disappearance of the ego and herewith the world – although it is really not existent ? Let us then mention/call it seeming appearance and seeming disappearance. What you write about Bhagavan’s claim about 'if we see the ego …[…]' results in/ invites arising of some further questions/statements:<br />1. Does the ego experience that there is no such thing as ego but only self ?<br />2. Is not be said that the self does not at all experience anything but is only being itself alone? <br />3. If so the experience of the non-existence of the ego can be made only by the ego itself. It is like calling: "Help, I do not at all exist !". <br />4. Being aware of (the existence of) otherness should be dissolved in favour of awareness of our true being.<br /><br />Generally, to be not clear about who we really are is a total disaster.<br />Yes, as you say let us try our best to gain clear experience/experiental knowledge about who we actually are.Kambysesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-21276057112461383552015-12-13T12:01:45.541+00:002015-12-13T12:01:45.541+00:00In continuation of my previous comment in reply to...In continuation of <a href="http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com/2015/11/is-there-more-than-one-way-in-which-we.html?commentPage=2#c8124494156311113333" rel="nofollow">my previous comment</a> in reply to Kambyses:<br /><br />Regarding your remark that the argument that the world appears and disappears simultaneously with the ego does not correspond with your daily experience, the argument is not that this particular world appears and disappears along with our ego but that some world or other always appears whenever our ego appears and disappears whenever our ego disappears, because our ego always experiences itself as a body, and a body is part of a world. The body that we experience as ourself and the world or which it is a part is not the same in both waking and dream, but in any state of waking or dream we always experience some body and world, whereas in sleep we experience no body or world. This is the daily experience of each one of us.<br /><br />Though we all generally recognise that any body and world that we experience in a dream are just mental creations and therefore do not exist independent of our experience of them, we naturally tend to believe that our present state is not a dream and that our present body and world are therefore not just mental creations but exist independent of our experience of them. However, Bhagavan points out that even when we are dreaming we naturally tend to believe that we are awake, so at that time we believe that the body and world we are then experiencing are not just mental creations but exist independent of our experience of them. Only after waking from a dream do we recognise that it was not waking but just a dream.<br /><br />According to Bhagavan, every state that we believe to be waking while we are experiencing it is just another dream, because whenever we dream we dream that we are awake. Therefore there is no fundamental difference between waking and dream. Whatever dream we are currently experiencing seems to us to be waking, and every other dream seems to be just a dream. Therefore just as the body and world that we experience in any other dream are mental creations, so too are the body and world that we now experience.<br /><br />If we consider our experience carefully, we will not be able to find any adequate evidence or other reason to support our habitual belief that we are not now dreaming. If we think we have found any such evidence or reason, that is because we have not considered our experience sufficiently carefully, because all the evidence and other reasons we think we have to support our belief that we are not now dreaming are indirectly based on our fundamental assumption that this is not a dream. In other words, our belief that we are not now dreaming is supported only by circular reasoning.<br /><br />The only effective way to cut through this illusory circle of reasoning is to consider the fact that even if we were now dreaming we would still be able to cite exactly the same ‘evidence’ or reasons to support our belief that we are awake and not dreaming. How can we know for certain that we are not just dreaming that we are now awake? There is absolutely no means by which we can know for certain that we are not now dreaming, because the very nature of any dream is to seem as if it were a state of waking so long as we are still experiencing it.<br /><br />Therefore if we are completely honest with ourself, we have to acknowledge that we have good reason to doubt whether our present state is actually a state of waking or just another dream. If it is a dream, then our present body and world are just creations of our own mind, and hence they seem to exist only so long as we are experiencing them, in which case they do not exist at all while we are asleep.Michael Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03460943269122289281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-81244941563111133332015-12-13T11:54:30.373+00:002015-12-13T11:54:30.373+00:00Kambyses, I have addressed the concerns that you e...Kambyses, I have addressed the concerns that you express in <a href="http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com/2015/11/is-there-more-than-one-way-in-which-we.html?commentPage=2#c4960456545053948136" rel="nofollow">your comment of 12 December 2015 at 13:19</a> and in several later ones about how we would or should behave in this world if we take it to be just a mind-dependent illusion, like a dream, in an earlier article, <a href="http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com/2015/01/why-are-compassion-and-ahimsa-necessary.html" rel="nofollow">Why are compassion and <i>ahiṁsā</i> necessary in a dream?</a>.<br /><br />(I will continue this reply in my next comment.)Michael Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03460943269122289281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-23991775266631352302015-12-13T07:18:48.510+00:002015-12-13T07:18:48.510+00:00Kambyses,
You say in one of your latest comment a...Kambyses,<br /><br />You say in one of your latest comment addressed to Sivanarul,<br /><br /><i>“All the world experience is just an illusion or just a creation of the non-existent ego”</i><br /><br />A non-existent ego cannot create anything. It is contradiction in terms. I don’t know who holds/teaches such ideas. If the jnani says the ego is (absolutely) non-existent, well, we cannot believe that. That may be his experience. It is not of much help to us. Actually, the jnani does not teach that way. On the other hand, the jnani says, ego is an appearance and hence all its creations are appearances. Motivated by that, if we want to determine ego’s exact existential status (and consequently the existential status of all its creations), we have to investigate this ego (‘I’ in our experience).<br /><br />In the center of the realm of all our experiences, there is an ‘I’, accessible at all times, quite immediately. Therefore, the moment this is understood, attending to that ‘I’ (which is what investigating it means) is a possibility which is available at all times, even while helping a hungry child or when japa is going on or when breathing is going on.<br /><br />If that moment of understanding has not come yet, well, helping the child, japa and watching the breath will go on, without attending to who is helping the child, who is doing japa, who is watching the breath. Along with that, holding the idea that there is a world independent of the ego will also go on.Wittgensteinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-35582153926407262062015-12-13T06:33:44.270+00:002015-12-13T06:33:44.270+00:00Kambyses,
I have tried to discuss based on my lim...Kambyses,<br /><br />I have tried to discuss based on my limited understanding. For convenience, I have broken your statements down to short statements and numbered them. I have a feeling that some background reading might be helpful. In such cases I have indicated the Ulladu Narpadu verses that I feel are relevant. The best thing would be to go to the book, ‘Happiness and the Art of Being’ (HAB, for short) by Michael James and look for these verses there and read his explanations. That would be more fruitful.<br /><br />[1] To make any statement whether any world has really existed during sleep is not seriously possible in waking and dreaming.<br /><br />Yes, if you mean by ‘real existence’ absolute existence, to make statements about absolute existence (or absolute non-existence) is not possible.<br /><br />[2] I agree that the experience of other objects is possible only to our ego when it rises into seeming existence. Equally this experience ceases with the cessation of the seeming ego. The argument that the arrival and departure/disappearance of objects (the world) simultaneously with the ego is admittedly original and witty but does not correspond with my daily experience.<br /><br />Here, the assumption seems to be that the world is independent of the mind (ego) that experiences it. Bhagavan teaches us that the world is mental creation, although the world and the mind appear and disappear together. We have to reconsider our everyday experience in the light of this teaching. Everyday experience is one thing and critically considering that experience in the light of Bhagavan’s teaching is another thing. Following up with their implications is yet another thing. You may consider Ulladu Narpadu, verses 5, 6 and 7 here.<br /><br />[3] How can any subject/thing which is exclusively aware of itself be aware additionally and simultaneously of the world ?<br /><br />If the subject is exclusively aware of itself, it cannot be aware of anything other than itself.<br /><br />[4] This is scarcely conceivable except the world is in no way different from self.<br /><br />This exception is for a jnani and of course it is scarcely conceivable for us. For the previous point and this point, you may refer to Ulladu Narpadu verses 17 and 18.<br /><br />[5] But that would you surely not claim.<br /><br />Yes, that cannot be my claim.<br /><br />[6] But I think Bhagavan taught us the mutually dependence of mind and world not in order to ignore the world and our fellow human beings. That would be in my opinion a grave error of judgement.<br /><br />Actually, Bhagavan teaches us that the world is mental creation, although the world and the mind appear and disappear together. By ‘ignoring the world and fellow human beings’, it appears that suffering in the world is brought into the discussion, in view of point 9 below. Therefore, I have tried to answer this in point 9.<br /><br />[7] To deny the significance of the world for our life in it is therefore in our current condition of ignorance pointless.<br /><br />The world is as significant as us. Therefore, we should try to investigate our significance.<br /><br />[8] Because the body , mind and world do not exist in sleep should not be an excuse to act so as they would be real existent.<br /><br />Here the idea that the body, mind and world do not exist in sleep is accepted by you, as against your assumption in point 2. How we act is determined, according to Bhagavan.<br /><br />[9] If for instance a hungry child would ask us for some edibles were we really justified to declare that suffering is only nonexistent because it is not really existing during sleep but only imagination in waking and leave the child back hungry ?<br /><br />Suffering is not absolutely non-existent. If it were, we cannot even be talking about it. It does appear real as long as it appears. How we act is determined. In every such determined act, there is someone acting and Bhagavan asks us to attend to that actor. Such attention, he says, is not determined.Wittgensteinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-3131269002199989722015-12-12T23:06:11.283+00:002015-12-12T23:06:11.283+00:00Kambyses,
I am with you. I feel the same way that...Kambyses,<br /><br />I am with you. I feel the same way that treating the world as an illusion will ultimately reduce significantly the sense of responsibility one has towards dependents. It is ok for people who don’t have any dependents to treat the world as an illusion. But for people with dependents, I think it is a violation of Dharma to treat the world as an illusion, if one does not have a very high degree of spiritual maturity. The better alternative is to treat the world as a manifestation of Ishvara and treat all jiva’s as oneself and help whatever one can (in addition to fulfilling one’s responsibilities to one’s dependents).<br /><br />That is why I always look towards Bhagavan’s actions and in that you will never find any irresponsible action. Bhagavan took care of his mother, his brother and everyone else entrusted under his care. For one of the devotees who came to him as a young man, his father came to get him back. The devotee did not want to go back and the father said he will only leave him behind if Bhagavan vouchsafed his safety and will shepherd his spiritual maturity. Bhagavan who rarely guarantees anything, did so in that ocaasion. Bhagavan kept that promise and in the last 2 minutes before Bhagavan was leaving the world, the devotee was blessed by the experience of the Self. So fulfilling one’s responsibility was a top instruction of Bhagavan and he never advised anyone to leave family or responsibility to search for the truth.<br /><br />It is my honest opinion that you don’t have to treat the world as an illusion or consider you are the only Jiva (Eka Jiva) for spiritual progress. In the initial stages, the main practice is to withdraw the mind from the senses (Pratyahara in Yoga terms, assuming you have Yama and Niyama covered). What does withdrawal mean? It means that withdrawing your mind away from everything that has nothing to do with your responsibilities or spirituality. If this is done fully, the ego will get severely starved and the mind will get really focused on just your responsibilities and in the search for truth. After this I don’t know what’s next, since I am only at the Pratyahara stage and trust that Ishvara will guide me later.<br />Sivanarulnoreply@blogger.com