tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post4796280295772339912..comments2023-10-16T13:06:42.360+01:00Comments on Happiness of Being: The Teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi: Why do I believe that ātma-vicāra is the only direct means by which we can eradicate the illusion that we are this ego?Michael Jameshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03460943269122289281noreply@blogger.comBlogger260125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-6288935063066295712016-02-13T00:24:38.204+00:002016-02-13T00:24:38.204+00:00Michael ,I have read many of your articles in your...Michael ,I have read many of your articles in your blog . I am not sure if you have covered this point. There has been few occasions where i am deep asleep and i would wake up suddenly and find someone watching me. After i wake up, first thought that comes to my mind is, how did I know this? My mind is asleep and self is only aware of itself. So what made me wake up ? So is mind aware of things happening outside even when it is asleep thru the power of self? This is my last question . If u have covered this point anywhere else, let me know. I would feel bad if you take effort and rewrite again something just because i posted this question. Sandhyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08519005356127310532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-21943388739235945672016-02-12T23:11:20.425+00:002016-02-12T23:11:20.425+00:00Thanks Michael, Steve. So, dream lion can be taken...Thanks Michael, Steve. So, dream lion can be taken as a pinch of our self showing itself to us and that is what we call as grace ..right? Not everyone's dream has a lion :) we can call it as grace or one of the tendencies could have been of good quality :) .Sandhyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08519005356127310532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-71817188901664220872016-02-08T19:21:01.320+00:002016-02-08T19:21:01.320+00:00In continuation of my previous comment in reply to...In continuation of <a href="http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com/2016/01/why-do-i-believe-that-atma-vicara-is.html?commentPage=2#c6292577599105803227" rel="nofollow">my previous comment</a> in reply to Sandhya:<br /><br />Regarding ‘the concept of realisation’, as I wrote in the <a href="#realise" rel="nofollow">tenth section</a> of this article, Bhagavan used to say that what is real is always real, so there is no need for us to realise it, but because we have now realised this unreal ego, we must unrealise it by investigating what we really are. When I wrote that section I did not remember that he had expressed this idea in several passages recorded in <a href="http://selfdefinition.org/ramana/Ramana%20Maharshi%20-%20ebook%20-%20Day%20By%20Day%20With%20Bhagavan.pdf" rel="nofollow"><i>Day by Day with Bhagavan</i></a>, but I was reminded of this by a <a href="http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com/2016/01/why-do-i-believe-that-atma-vicara-is.html?commentPage=2#c3724450177360720249" rel="nofollow">comment</a> in which ‘Viveka Vairagya’ quoted one on them.<br /><br />In one of these passages, dated 9-1-46 Afternoon (2002 edition, page 102), it is recorded that he said: ‘It is false to speak of Realisation. What is there to realise? The real is as it is, ever. How to real-ise it? All that is required is this. We have real-ised the unreal, i.e., regarded as real what is unreal. We have to give up this attitude. That is all that is required for us to attain <i>jnana</i>. We are not creating anything new or achieving something which we did not have before’.<br /><br />In another passage, dated 22-3-46 Afternoon (2002 edition, page 181), it is recorded that he said: ‘Of course, we loosely talk of Self-realisation, for want of a better term. How to ‘real-ise’ or make real that which alone is real? What we are all doing is, we ‘realised’ or regard as real that which is unreal. This habit of ours has to be given up. All <i>sadhana</i> under all systems of thought is meant only for this end. When we give up regarding the unreal as real, then the reality alone will remain and we will be that’.<br /><br />In yet another passage, dated 17-8-46 Afternoon (2002 edition, pages 297-8), it is recorded that he said: ‘Giving up this identification with the not-Self is all that is meant by Self-realisation. How to realise, i.e., make real, the Self? We have realised, i.e., regarded as real, what is unreal, the not-Self. To give up such false realisation is Self-realisation’.Michael Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03460943269122289281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-62925775991058032272016-02-08T19:15:41.456+00:002016-02-08T19:15:41.456+00:00Sandhya, in answer to your first comment (which yo...Sandhya, in answer to <a href="http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com/2016/01/why-do-i-believe-that-atma-vicara-is.html?commentPage=2#c8095188764812179259" rel="nofollow">your first comment</a> (which you had earlier written <a href="http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com/2015/11/what-happens-to-our-mind-in-sleep.html#c2013194947580268129" rel="nofollow">below another article</a>), according to Bhagavan what is real is only yourself, as he states unequivocally in the first sentence of the <a href="http://www.happinessofbeing.com/nan_yar.html#para07" rel="nofollow">seventh paragraph</a> of <i>Nāṉ Yār?</i>: ‘யதார்த்தமா யுள்ளது ஆத்மசொரூப மொன்றே’ (<i>yathārtham-āy uḷḷadu ātma-sorūpam oṉḏṟē</i>), which means ‘What actually exists is only <i>ātma-svarūpa</i> [our own real self]’. Therefore everything else — including the outward form of Bhagavan, his teachings and ‘realisation’ or liberation — is just a mental fabrication, because it seems to exist only when we seem to be this ego, as in waking or dream, and not when we do not seem to be this ego, as in sleep.<br /><br />However so long as we experience ourself as this ego, all these other things seem to be real, but they are only as real as this ego, and if we investigate what this ego actually is we will discover that it does not exist at all, and that what actually exists is only our own real self, which is infinite and indivisible self-awareness, in the clear view of which nothing else exists or even seems to exist.<br /><br />This is why Bhagavan gave the analogy of the dream lion awakening the elephant. Though the lion is just a mental fabrication and hence unreal, it wakes the elephant from its dream. Likewise, though the human form of Bhagavan and the teachings he gave are no more real than our ego, they do prompt us (this ego) to turn within to investigate what we really are, and thus they wake us up from this sleep of self-ignorance, so the unreal <i>guru-siṁha</i> (lion in the form of our <i>guru</i>) will make us experience the real state of self-awakening.<br /><br />Regarding your remark that ‘This spiritual journey doesn’t seem to have a definite beginning’, you yourself are both the beginning and the end of it, so you can find where it began and where it will end only when you find out what you actually are. Your spiritual journey began with the rising of you as an ego, and it will end only when you experience what you actually are and thereby dissolve your illusory experience of yourself as this ego.<br /><br />So long as we experience ourself as this ego, we seem to be bound by it, so both bondage and liberation seem to us to be real. However, when we experience ourself as we actually are, we will discover that we have never been an ego and have therefore never been bound, so neither bondage nor liberation will then seem to be real. Liberation is a useful and meaningful concept so long as we seem to be bound, but when we discover that we have never been bound it will become meaningless. This is why Bhagavan taught us that ultimately there is no bondage and hence no liberation, but that so long as we seem to be bound we should try to see who is bound, because this is the only way to liberate ourself from the illusion of bondage and liberation. <br /><br />(I will continue this reply in my next comment.)Michael Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03460943269122289281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-49764416755929762302016-02-08T17:31:31.636+00:002016-02-08T17:31:31.636+00:00I take your point Steve. Apologies if I misunderto...I take your point Steve. Apologies if I misundertood you, I'll review your comments.<br /><br />The limitations of language are enhanced through this text,email,blog medium. <br />Body language is missing, and sometimes that aspect gives a complete different understanding of what is said, on both sides.<br /><br />We are all embracing Bhagavan's teachings to the best of our abilities and love. "Yours in Bhagavan" is a reminder, for me and to me only, of where we/I stand in relation to myself/guru.Mounahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02416580298727681711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-64721852664785653482016-02-08T17:28:45.425+00:002016-02-08T17:28:45.425+00:00Viveka Vairagya, thanks for giving the references....Viveka Vairagya, thanks for giving the references. I had already found most of them using online or other PDF copies of these books, but giving them saves us from any need to search for them.Michael Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03460943269122289281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-405562933130370462016-02-08T17:17:51.939+00:002016-02-08T17:17:51.939+00:00Mouna, I was not judging your understanding, and w...Mouna, I was not judging your understanding, and what you believe I said is not what I actually said.Stevenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-87675809542494492882016-02-08T17:03:57.762+00:002016-02-08T17:03:57.762+00:00If it sounds empty to you is not my fault, Steve.
...If it sounds empty to you is not my fault, Steve.<br />Again, we can only be judges of our own understanding, not of others.<br />I believe once you said that to judge others work or experience is one of the best ego tricks.Mounahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02416580298727681711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-4657188411162989312016-02-08T16:51:44.605+00:002016-02-08T16:51:44.605+00:00'To answer yes or no would be only at the leve...'To answer yes or no would be only at the level of the intellect.'<br /><br />The question 'are we a body?' doesn't call for a yes or no answer, but for a clear understanding which will lead us to an experiential answer. Bhagavan teaches us that we are not a body in order for us to be able to discriminate between what is real and what is not, and thereby direct our attention to our reality, aka atma-vicara. <br /><br />To say that Bhagavan is your guru - which is what I assume you are saying when you close your comments with 'Yours in Bhagavan' - sounds rather empty without embracing what he has taught us.Stevenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-50197625051128147612016-02-08T16:08:06.987+00:002016-02-08T16:08:06.987+00:00"The question is, are we a body?"
The a..."The question is, are we a body?"<br /><br />The answer to that question can only be answered and felt individually in the silence at the bottom of our hearts.<br />To answer yes or no would be only at the level of the intellect.<br />Pain will be "felt" in relation to that understanding.<br />"Feeling" pain doesn't make it real.<br />Mounahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02416580298727681711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-81300107631646830122016-02-08T13:15:37.533+00:002016-02-08T13:15:37.533+00:00'...each of us know, in the bottom of our hear...'...each of us know, in the bottom of our hearts, how real or unreal we take our pains...'<br /><br />If a body is in pain, that pain, by definition, will feel like pain regardless of how real or unreal we take it to be. The question is, are we a body? Stevenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-52251966692996725942016-02-08T11:57:08.608+00:002016-02-08T11:57:08.608+00:00Dear Michael,
What you suggest about giving refer...Dear Michael,<br /><br />What you suggest about giving references to my quotes of Bhagavan is very valid. So, here are the references to my various posts in the comments section above, posted over the last few days:<br /><br />Ramana Maharshi on Ignorance (Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi, Talk 249)<br /><br />Ramana Maharshi on One's True Nature (Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi, Talk 328)<br /><br />A Conversation with Ramana Maharshi (Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi, Talk 195)<br /><br />Ramana Maharshi on Spurious 'I' (Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi, Talk 427)<br /><br />Ramana Maharshi on Jagrat-Sushupti (Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi, Talk 609)<br /><br />Ramana Maharshi on the Ego (Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi, Talk 612)<br /><br />Ramana Maharshi on Our Real nature (Day by Day with Bhagavan, Sec. 5-1-46 Afternoon)<br /><br />Ramana Maharshi on the Intellect (Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi, Talk 644 & Day by Day with Bhagavan, Sec. 10-5-46)<br /><br />Ramana Maharshi on Samsara (Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi, Talk 625)<br /><br />Ramana Maharshi on Renunciation (Day by Day with Bhagavan, Sec. 18-9-45 Afternoon)<br /><br />Ramana Maharshi on Suffering (Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi, Talk 633)<br /><br />Ramana Maharshi on Self-realisation (Day by Day with Bhagavan, Sec. 17-8-46)<br /><br />Ramana Maharshi on Stilling the Mind (Day by Day with Bhagavan, Sec. 18-10-46)<br /><br />Ramana Maharshi on the Real 'I' (Day by Day with Bhagavan, Sec. 24-11-46)<br /><br />Ramana Maharshi's Assurance (Crumbs from his table, 7th edition 2006, p 29 and Spiritual Instruction, Chapter 1, Question 2)Viveka Vairagyanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-32070722107146676712016-02-08T10:04:40.230+00:002016-02-08T10:04:40.230+00:00Viveka Vairagya, in many of your recent comments y...Viveka Vairagya, in many of your recent comments you have cited useful passages from books such as <a href="http://selfdefinition.org/ramana/Talks-with-Sri-Ramana-Maharshi--complete.pdf" rel="nofollow"><i>Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi</i></a> and <a href="http://selfdefinition.org/ramana/Ramana%20Maharshi%20-%20ebook%20-%20Day%20By%20Day%20With%20Bhagavan.pdf" rel="nofollow"><i>Day by Day with Bhagavan</i></a>, but may I suggest that whenever you cite such passages in future it would be more useful if you were to include a clear reference to the source from which you are citing each of them (book title, section number or date, and/or edition and page number).<br /><br />Nowadays on the internet many people quote things that they claim Bhagavan said but that he might never have said, so it can often be difficult to verify the authenticity of any such quotations when they are given without any reference to their source. Therefore if it always useful to readers if clear references to the original source are given whenever his words are quoted.Michael Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03460943269122289281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-2602357409393422192016-02-08T09:46:10.158+00:002016-02-08T09:46:10.158+00:00Maya, I have replied to some of the ideas you expr...Maya, I have replied to some of the ideas you expressed in <a href="http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com/2016/01/why-do-i-believe-that-atma-vicara-is.html#c469496398856387549" rel="nofollow">your first comment</a> on this article in a new article: <a href="http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com/2016/02/why-should-we-believe-what-bhagavan.html" rel="nofollow">Why should we believe what Bhagavan taught us?</a>.Michael Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03460943269122289281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-28701126444257250822016-02-08T06:59:49.232+00:002016-02-08T06:59:49.232+00:00Ramana Maharshi's Assurance
Self-Realisation ...<b>Ramana Maharshi's Assurance</b><br /><br />Self-Realisation will come to an earnest seeker in a trice. ... [The marks of an earnest disciple] are an intense longing for the removal of sorrow and attainment of joy and an intense aversion for all kinds of mundane pleasure.Viveka Vairagyanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-60549141003945231222016-02-08T04:30:58.064+00:002016-02-08T04:30:58.064+00:00Everything is as real as I take myself to be (real...Everything is as real as I take myself to be (real).<br />And each of us know, in the bottom of our hearts, how real or unreal we take our pains, our bodies, our psyches.<br />We will never ever know about others, we can only know about ourselves...<br />The relationship to the guru and ourself is the most private and unique, and I dare say, the only one really important, no matter what form it takes.<br /><br />Yours in Bhagavan<br />Mouna<br /><br />Mounahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02416580298727681711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-83308373597606585072016-02-08T02:43:10.211+00:002016-02-08T02:43:10.211+00:00My friend Steve,
I have also read that Zen story ...My friend Steve,<br /><br />I have also read that Zen story and very familiar with it. But you are using it in the wrong context. I can also use that right back at you. How can you really understand what I am telling, if you keep your cup full :-) You are so convinced (cup full) that you cannot even entertain the possibility that the guru’s form can be real. Please empty your cup, Steve.<br /><br />Let’s say we have reached a stalemate and leave it at that. Have a good night.<br />Sivanarulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-90641565598513625732016-02-08T02:30:34.703+00:002016-02-08T02:30:34.703+00:00A Cup of Tea
Nan-in, a Japanese master during the...A Cup of Tea<br /><br />Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.<br /><br />Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor’s cup full, and then kept on pouring.<br />The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. “It is overfull. No more will go in!”<br /><br />“Like this cup,” Nan-in said, “you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?”Stevenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-32670558468507016242016-02-08T02:28:06.638+00:002016-02-08T02:28:06.638+00:00Steve,
One last comment on this. Bhagavan himself...Steve,<br /><br />One last comment on this. Bhagavan himself did not follow his own teaching (form being unreal). He considered his guru’s form (Arunachala) to be real. In fact he considered it to be so real, that he said that girivalam is the best sadhana one can do. In fact he took his last breath hearing his guru’s name (Arunachala Siva, Arunachala Siva, Arunachala Siva, Arunachala) with teary bliss flowing in his eyes.<br /><br />Many try to explain away that as; Arunachala is nothing but the Self. So be it. But Arunachala does have a form that is seen by these human eyes. If all forms are unreal, then Arunachala’s form must also be unreal. But if Arunachala is the Self, how can it be unreal? <br /><br />If Arunachala’s form is then real, why can’t the guru’s form be real also (Arunachala being nothing other the guru of all guru’s, Lord Dakshinamurthy).<br />Sivanarulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-9115281093744999812016-02-08T01:50:32.204+00:002016-02-08T01:50:32.204+00:00Steve,
The other problem I have, with the guru’s ...Steve,<br /><br />The other problem I have, with the guru’s form being unreal, is that none of the proponents of it really followed it themselves (including Michael). Let me explain.<br /><br />It is fair to assume that most regular readers of this blog will all agree that Sri Muruganar, Sri Sadhu OM and Sri Annamalai swami have all realized their “Self”. So in that regard, they have absolutely no difference with Bhagavan. Yet they all claimed that there is only one Guru and that is Bhagavan only and no one can take his place to eternity. How come? Whom are they referring to Bhagavan here? If it is the Self, then by virtue of them realizing the Self, what is the difference between them and Bhagavan? Why can’t they take Bhagavan’s place? We are only taking about the unremitting abidance of the Self switching from one unreal form (Bhagavan’s) to another unreal form (Sri Sadhu OM’s). What is the problem? Why the resistance?<br /><br />I know the lion is still appearing in our dream. But the dream lion of Bhagavan is a dream that is 66 years old. The dream lion of Annamalai swami is only 20 years old. Why are we still hanging to an older dream? Why not go to the new dream of Sri Annamalai swami or Sri Sadhu OM? After all, these later dream lions are only teaching the older lion’s teachings.<br /><br />It is fair to say,that for most sadhakas, all the dream lions are ultra real and they all help us in one or the other. <br />Sivanarulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-13286204110621786202016-02-08T01:14:07.644+00:002016-02-08T01:14:07.644+00:00Steve,
“I hate crowds”.
No wonder advaita attrac...Steve,<br /><br />“I hate crowds”.<br /><br />No wonder advaita attracted you. Even two is a crowd then, that you probably hate :-) That explains why you are a huge fan of Eka Jiva vada :-)<br /><br />From a practical standpoint, if one already lives as if one’s body is a dream character, then one has progressed much further on the path. Unless one is fairly advanced, no sadhaka treats his/her body as a dream character. When a thorn pricks the foot, no sadhaka smiles and says, “it’s only dream pain in my dream foot”.<br /><br />“The reality of the guru is the reality of you.”<br /><br />Yes, after awakening. But the sadhaka does not know the reality of himself experientially. That is why he approaches the reality of the guru both in guru’s form outside of him and as well as in him.<br /><br />Have a good night Steve. <br />Sivanarulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-35460134308172484142016-02-08T00:57:30.022+00:002016-02-08T00:57:30.022+00:00Sivanarul, my friend, from a practical standpoint,...Sivanarul, my friend, from a practical standpoint, it would best to start with the dream character you consider to be yourself. 'Because you identify yourself with the body, you think the Guru also is the body.' It's the form of the guru that is unreal. The reality of the guru is the reality of you. <br /><br />By the way, in my case at least, you would lose that bet. I hate crowds. <br />Stevenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-42413506587408175062016-02-08T00:03:14.698+00:002016-02-08T00:03:14.698+00:00I know my friends Steve, Michael and many others t...I know my friends Steve, Michael and many others take the position that the guru is the lion in their dream. But I bet, if Bhagavan magically reappears in Thiru, all of them will run to Thiru immediately and will stay with that dream lion until they awaken. Then after awakening also, they will more than likely continue staying with that lion until their last day, unless that dream lion asks them to go. So from a practical standpoint, whether they call that lion a dream one or a real one has no bearing on what they will do.<br /><br />The dream lion is a nice advaitic theoretical concept that has no practical value. No awakened disciple, even though they may write that the guru is a dream lion, has followed that in action. In Ozhivil Odukkam, Kannudaiya Vallalar in every few verses repeatedly thanks his dream lion Sri Thiru Jnana Sambandar, the great Saivite guru. That is usually explained away as an expression of gratitude. But since Kannudaiya vallalar had awakened, and was firmly established in the Self and experientially realized that he is Brahman, why does he not thank himself? Why thank that dream lion whose job has already been completed?<br /><br />Let’s say we have a very important appointment one day at 6 AM. We somehow oversleep, but suddenly a dream character reminds us of our appointment. We would wake up and he happy that we woke up. Would we then start thanking that dream character profusely? I have never done that and never see myself doing that. The dream’s impact would be there for a few minutes. After that, “it was just a dream”.<br /><br />So from a practical standpoint, before considering the guru as a dream character, let’s see whether we can consider pain, pleasure, hunger, family and friends as dream characters first.<br />Sivanarulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-5094188510633134842016-02-07T21:41:53.251+00:002016-02-07T21:41:53.251+00:00'So what is truly real here?'
Ramana Maha...'So what is truly real here?'<br /><br />Ramana Maharshi, the character in your dream, gives us a basic answer to your basic question: the self (your existence) alone is real. So yes, the teachings, the concept of realization, and everything else, is part of your imagination. Where does a dream begin? <br /><br />'Sri Ramana used to compare the physical appearance of the guru and his teachings to the appearance of a lion in the dream of an elephant. An elephant is so afraid of lions that as soon as it sees one in its dream it wakes up. Though the lion it saw was unreal, the resulting waking is real. Likewise, though the physical form of the guru and the words of his teachings are all unreal, being part of our present dream, the waking that they bring about is real.' - Michael James<br /><br />More of Michael's comments? You're swimming in them!Stevenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-83666609344666772702016-02-07T19:41:04.106+00:002016-02-07T19:41:04.106+00:00Thanks SivanarulThanks SivanarulSandhyanoreply@blogger.com