tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post1499770186980950861..comments2023-10-16T13:06:42.360+01:00Comments on Happiness of Being: The Teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi: There is absolutely no difference between sleep and pure self-awareness (ātma-jñāna)Michael Jameshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03460943269122289281noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-82291015715277205702017-07-07T09:17:36.596+01:002017-07-07T09:17:36.596+01:00Roger, I have replied to both your comments (first...Roger, I have replied to both your comments (<a href="#c2064891937773603134" rel="nofollow">first</a> and <a href="#c6981023395494479041" rel="nofollow">second</a>) in a separate article: <a href="http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com/2017/07/the-non-existence-of-ego-body-and-world.html" rel="nofollow">The non-existence of the ego, body and world in <i>manōlaya</i> is only temporary, whereas in <i>manōnāśa</i> it is permanent</a>.Michael Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03460943269122289281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-92189930536438301862017-07-06T09:03:15.995+01:002017-07-06T09:03:15.995+01:00In continuation of my previous comment addressed t...In continuation of my previous comment addressed to Roger Isaacs<br /><br />You are of course free to comment on this blog, but my suggestion is that it is better to engage your energies in studying intensively and forming a reasonably well-knit understanding of the subject of your study, instead of prematurely and in an incorrect context declaring an account of Bhagavan's teachings as being 'rigid and inflexible'.<br /><br />You say, and i quote <br /><br /><i>But... others (such as Shankara) have a different preference. And in fact Bhagavan at times takes a different position than his earlier works and supports Shankara's position. Perhaps we could allow that all the positions are useful for different temperaments.</i><br /><br />If our objective is to experience the clear light of self-awareness that we always are, bereft of all confusion and wrong identification, then the means to achieve it is, by the admission of all Sages in unison, very 'rigid and inflexible'. This is quite similar to the 'rigid and inflexible' means of looking directly at the sun with our naked eyes - there is but one way to do so, and no different positions for people having different temperaments.<br /><br />However, all Sages, Adi Shankaracharya and Bhagavan included, make a concession to our present seeming ignorance, and prescribe various palliatives to reduce the intensity of the symptoms caused by the root cause of all the diseases - namely the ego. However, sooner or later, all these palliatives will cease in their effects; or more precisely, we would sooner or later become dissatisfied with the effects of the palliatives, and begin seeking something better. <br /><br />Bhagavan does not disapprove of our engaging in various practices whenever we insist on doing them, but he has explicitly stated that the direct means and the best among all practices for everyone without exception, is atma vichara. Though atma-vichara may seem difficult for most of us, this difficulty should not detract from the veracity of Bhagavan's contention. <br /><br />In conclusion, no one can with reason deny that different practices are useful for people with different temperaments, but when it comes down to the eradication of the root of all problems, only one very 'rigid and inflexible' means exists.Identity Appropriatornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-80097767467068868962017-07-06T08:06:23.553+01:002017-07-06T08:06:23.553+01:00Roger Isaacs,
There is no 'useful stimulatio...Roger Isaacs, <br /><br />There is no 'useful stimulation' in taking some verses of revered Philosophical works, and using them out of context in order to argue against an incorrect understanding of someone's translation of and commentary upon Bhagavan's works and teachings.<br /><br />I suggest that you start a blog/write a book expounding in detail your understanding of spirituality/philosophy, instead of trying repeatedly to force your own disapproving views on the 'inflexible and narrow' account of Michael James's writings.Identity Appropriatornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-69810233954944790412017-07-06T07:17:45.664+01:002017-07-06T07:17:45.664+01:00Hi Michael & Identity Appropriator,
Thanks for...Hi Michael & Identity Appropriator,<br />Thanks for the post, although, as I see the issue it is slightly different.<br /><br />Michael recommends (from Bhagavan) that one should go to a state where "the ego, body and world are no longer in awareness" which is the same as sleep in a sense.<br /><br />Mandukyopanisad Shankara III.44 and surrounding verses recommends specifically that if the mind/attention goes into this state that Michael recommends (oblivion = sleep = "no ego, no body, no world") then immediately "awaken it again". So Gaudapada and Shankara specifically say that this "no ego, no body, no world" state that Michael seeks is only a distraction.<br /><br />So Michael and Gaudapada / Shankara are recommending very different practices.<br /><br />In "Talks", Bhagavan acknowledges BOTH states: <i><br />Talk 17:<br />D.: Does Maharshi enter the nirvikalpa samadhi (no ego, no body, no world)?<br />M.: If the eyes are closed, it is nirvikalpa; if open, it is (though differentiated, still in absolute repose) savikalpa. The ever-present state is the natural state sahaja. </i><br /><br />And at other times Bhagavan suggests limitations of the practice of "no ego, no body, no world" that he recommended earlier:<br />talk 54:<i><br />Even if one is immersed in nirvikalpa samadhi for years together, when he emerges from it he will find himself in the environment which he is bound to have. That is the reason for the Acharya emphasising sahaja samadhi in preference to nirvikalpa samadhi in his excellent work Viveka Chudamani. </i><br /><br />Note: in the prior statement Bhagavan is taking sides with Shankara (the author of Viveka Chudamani) and confirming that nirvikalpa (no ego, no body, no world) has limitations as detailed in Mandukyopanisad.<br /><br />So I can find places where Bhagavan takes 3 different positions (all correct as far as I can see):<br />1: recommends "no ego, no body, no world (nirvikalpa samadhi)", <br />2: and he speaks out against holding it for a long time (years), <br />3: AND he says he is in both states.<br /><br />All of these practices sound reasonable to me for the temperaments of different people at different times.<br /><br />For me personally, I practice both. During the day, when meditating and during activity, it is natural to practice self-attentiveness but with body and world in awareness. And... after meditating with awareness of body/world, when resting or going to sleep or awakening... it is natural to practice "no ego, no body, no world".<br /><br />My main reason in highlighting this difference between Michael and Shankara is that I consider Michael's account to be rather inflexible and narrow. Michael's view does not cover all of Bhagavan's positions nor does it include Shankara.<br /><br />If Michael has a personal preference for nirvikalpa (no ego, no body, no world) then that sounds perfectly fine and agreeable. But... others (such as Shankara) have a different preference. And in fact Bhagavan at times takes a different position than his earlier works and supports Shankara's position. Perhaps we could allow that all the positions are useful for different temperaments.<br /><br />Thanks, this is useful stimulation for me to read Shankara again. :-)<br /><br />Rogerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12886674544129003153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-3308457197451459012017-07-06T04:41:20.172+01:002017-07-06T04:41:20.172+01:00Roger Isaacs,
I reproduce below the first paragra...Roger Isaacs,<br /><br />I reproduce below the first paragraph of Michael's response to the question.<br /><br /><i>In one sense ‘realisation’ (ātma-jñāna: self-knowledge or true self-awareness) is exactly the same as sleep, and in another sense it is not. From the perspective of ourself as this mind, sleep seems to be an imperfect state, firstly because we come out of it sooner or later, and secondly because it seems to be a state of darkness or nescience, so from this perspective sleep seems to be quite unlike ātma-jñāna.</i><br /><br />As is clearly stated, sleep is exactly the same as self-knowledge, but so long as we seem to go in and come out of it, sleep is imperfect. Hence, Adi Shankaracharya treats sleep in this sense, as a distraction.<br /><br />However, as stated later in the article, <i>Since they are both states of pure self-awareness, there is absolutely no difference between sleep and ātma-jñāna, and they are not actually two states but just one — the only state that actually exists (which is what is sometimes called jāgrat-suṣupti, ‘wakeful sleep’, turīya, ‘the fourth’, or turīyātīta, ‘beyond the fourth’)[...]</i>.<br /><br />As for going in and coming out of sleep, as stated in the article, <i>It is only from the perspective of ourself as the ego or mind in waking and dream that sleep seems to be transitory and imperfect, and hence different from ātma-jñāna. From this perspective the most serious defect in sleep seems to be that sooner or later we invariably come out of it, so we cannot remain in sleep forever. But who comes out of sleep? Obviously only the mind (the ego). Therefore coming out of sleep is an issue for us only so long as we mistake ourself to be this mind, but are we this mind? And if we are not this mind, is there any such thing as ‘mind’ at all?</i>Identity Appropriatornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-38093203413356169232017-07-06T02:54:11.960+01:002017-07-06T02:54:11.960+01:00Roger, you remind me of the classic Zen story of t...Roger, you remind me of the classic Zen story of the enlightened master who is pointing with his finger to the moon. Alas many seekers, and that includes you Roger, are focusing on the finger instead to attend to that what is pointed to.<br /><br />The finger is the metaphor for teachings/practices and the moon is the metaphor for Self.Purification of mind does NOT reflect on one’s outward behavior, a purified mind is no mind and any perceived behavior is illusionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03403745904820287115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-38840478664282050932017-07-06T01:34:26.298+01:002017-07-06T01:34:26.298+01:00Hey Roger, your mind is so busy with "trying ...Hey Roger, your mind is so busy with "trying to understand" and with comparing teachings..... Give it a rest my friend.<br /><br />Don't you see that this is keeping you in samsara? Your mind needs to shut up. It will NEVER understand or comprehend!!!Purification of mind does NOT reflect on one’s outward behavior, a purified mind is no mind and any perceived behavior is illusionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03403745904820287115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-20648919377736031342017-07-05T23:37:33.163+01:002017-07-05T23:37:33.163+01:00Hi Michael,
If there is no difference between sle...Hi Michael,<br />If there is no difference between sleep and self-awareness, then why in Mandukyopanisad III-44 do Gaudapada and Shankara explicitly state that when during meditation the mind becomes inactive in oblivion (susupti / sleep) the mind should be awakened again, just the same as if the mind is distracted. Shankara treats sleep or susputi the same as a distraction: <br /><i>"This is the warning given against pursuing the Yogic Samadhi as the state of the highest spiritual realization"</i> Nikhilananda's comment.<br /><br />It seems you teach that sleep is the highest state, your whole teaching is oriented toward this, but Shankara explicitly warns against it.Rogerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12886674544129003153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-68250604736950523262017-07-05T08:19:16.462+01:002017-07-05T08:19:16.462+01:00Noob,
who says that there is any world ?
Do not th...Noob,<br />who says that there is any world ?<br />Do not the sages say that only atma-svarupa really exists.<br />How can there be anything other but atma svarupa ?antam-ilā kaṇnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-33707654027079176302017-07-04T22:36:43.319+01:002017-07-04T22:36:43.319+01:00Another trap, whenever we say "in perspective...Another trap, whenever we say "in perspective" or "relative" we are making statements scientifically, but we really must experience it first hand. For that we must get rid of mind, that writes all this nonsense.<br />Noobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12797750547512929881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-90936021932340038772017-07-04T22:28:38.038+01:002017-07-04T22:28:38.038+01:00Or seem to existOr seem to existNoobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12797750547512929881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-11723787836807832322017-07-04T22:27:26.559+01:002017-07-04T22:27:26.559+01:00Otherwise the world would have ceased to exist imm...Otherwise the world would have ceased to exist immediately.<br />Noobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12797750547512929881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-22864458568818697732017-07-04T22:25:00.767+01:002017-07-04T22:25:00.767+01:00If there is no difference between sleep and pure s...If there is no difference between sleep and pure self awareness, then no one in this world has ever experienced either of them.Noobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12797750547512929881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-59319478987314836252017-07-02T23:47:49.654+01:002017-07-02T23:47:49.654+01:00Salazar,
let's hope so, of course. I was only ...Salazar,<br />let's hope so, of course. I was only in a fit of melancholy to which I said goodbye now, thank God!spinning spidernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-11724234549977150792017-07-02T21:19:44.432+01:002017-07-02T21:19:44.432+01:00spinning spider, you said "most of us will ne...spinning spider, you said "most of us will never find our real and eternal state"<br /><br />How you know, through believing a self-defeating thought? Bhagavan assured that everybody will be realized, eventually. <br /><br />There is no humility in joining the ranks of those who find themselves seemingly incapable of doing vichara. "Not possible" is not an option for a yogi ;-) <br /><br />If one believes the concept of reincarnation in order to explain differences of maturity in seekers then it is not far-fetched that even Bhagavan, the Buddha, and all of the other great sages have started the way we have - many, many lifetimes ago. And their mind must have complained as pathetically as we may have at some point of their seeming evolution. And yet they succeeded as we shall all too. <br />Purification of mind does NOT reflect on one’s outward behavior, a purified mind is no mind and any perceived behavior is illusionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03403745904820287115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-55739783721725983212017-07-02T17:17:00.016+01:002017-07-02T17:17:00.016+01:00Michael,
unfolding a pessimistic but closely relat...Michael,<br />unfolding a pessimistic but closely related to life view:<br />most of us seem not to possess the heavenly gift to investigate ourself so keenly enough to see what we actually are.<br />Therefore most of us will never find our real and eternal state of pure self-awareness.<br />Most of us will never have the clear perspective that nothing than jnana itself exists.<br />So the mahavakya 'tat tvam asi' will be known for most of us only from books or heresay.<br />So most of us will walk all our life only as mind-controlled zombies.<br />Unfortunately I seem to be one of most of us.spinning spidernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-77237289338635473282017-07-02T16:18:14.330+01:002017-07-02T16:18:14.330+01:00Anonymous, regarding your comment, yes, from the p...Anonymous, regarding <a href="#c423377873602277546" rel="nofollow">your comment</a>, yes, from the perspective of the mind in waking and dream sleep seems to be a state in which the mind is in <i>laya</i>, but according to Bhagavan if we investigate ourself keenly enough to see what we actually are, we will find that sleep is actually our real and eternal state of pure self-awareness, in which no mind has ever seemed to exist at all (and hence no <i>laya</i> has ever occurred).<br /><br />As he often used to say, <i>jñāna</i> (pure self-awareness) alone is the <i>jñāni</i>, so the <i>jñāni</i> is not a person and it never wakes up from sleep, nor does it ever dream. It is only from the perspective of the self-ignorant mind that the <i>jñāni</i> seems to be a person and therefore seems to experience waking and dream.<br /><br />Being nothing other than <i>jñāna</i>, the <i>jñāni</i> is eternally awake in the sleep of pure self-awareness, because it is never aware of anything other than itself, since in its clear perspective nothing other than itself exists or even seems to exist. Therefore, since it alone exists, <i>tat tvam asi</i>: ‘that you are’.Michael Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03460943269122289281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-4233778736022775462017-07-02T15:17:37.986+01:002017-07-02T15:17:37.986+01:00So there is no difference between deep sleep and p...So there is no difference between deep sleep and pure Self awareness...all are jnanis in deep sleep and have jnana in deep sleep or in other words there is only jnana in deep sleep...it is only on waking up they become ajnanis and there is ajnana.<br />I was thinking sleep was a state where mind is in laya.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-55935602028431807492017-07-02T11:23:43.075+01:002017-07-02T11:23:43.075+01:00Instead of debating it, may be we should ask membe...Instead of debating it, may be we should ask members on this group about their experience. How many of us find 'being still' involves efforts vis-a-vis those who find it effortless?<br />For my part, I find it involving great effort.Sanjay Srivastavahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12178069405979485331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-67574821313554466692017-07-01T11:17:33.303+01:002017-07-01T11:17:33.303+01:00Michael, thanks for pointing that out. But, isn...Michael, thanks for pointing that out. But, isn't effort a kind of activity, in that full effort precludes mere indolence or inactivity. The dam example of Sri Sadhu Om is instructive in that the dam is putting the "effort" to stop the water from flowing, so in that sense isn't that effort of the dam a kind of "activity". Although to try to just be or be still is sort of a "negative" activity in that you are putting full effort to be inactive, that is, without thoughts.D. Samarender Reddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18029954852517079748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-19692369907089434012017-07-01T10:14:15.283+01:002017-07-01T10:14:15.283+01:00Samarender, the translation of Bhagavan’s answer t...Samarender, the translation of Bhagavan’s answer to question 4 of the second chapter of <i>Upadēśa Mañjari</i> (Spiritual Instruction) that you quote in <a href="#c3764130412430226238" rel="nofollow">your comment</a> is not sufficiently accurate, as I explain in one of my earlier articles, <a href="http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/just-being-summa-irukkai-is-not.html" rel="nofollow">Just being (<i>summā irukkai</i>) is not an activity but a state of perfect stillness</a>, in which I give a more accurate and less confusing translation of it.Michael Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03460943269122289281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-37641304124302262382017-07-01T09:49:35.628+01:002017-07-01T09:49:35.628+01:00Ramana Maharshi on "Being Still"
Q: Is ...<b>Ramana Maharshi on "Being Still"</b><br /><br />Q: Is the state of ‘being still’ a state involving effort or effortless?<br /><br />Ramana Maharshi: It is not an effortless state of indolence. All mundane activities which are ordinarily called effort are performed with the aid of a portion of the mind and with frequent breaks. But the act of communion with the Self (atma vyavahara) or remaining still inwardly is intense activity which is performed with the entire mind and without break. <br /><br />Maya (delusion or ignorance) which cannot be destroyed by any other act is completely destroyed by this intense activity which is called ‘silence’ (mauna).<br /><br />(from <i>Spiritual Instruction</i>, Chapter II, Q. 4)D. Samarender Reddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18029954852517079748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-59229306943959252712017-07-01T09:12:35.274+01:002017-07-01T09:12:35.274+01:00Michael,
regarding my yesterday question of a spec...Michael,<br />regarding my yesterday question of a special term for the 'eternal sleep of atma-jnana' I overlooked that you named already that one real and all-transcending state just in your article: 'turiya'.antam-ilā kaṇnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-81733784539749345992017-06-30T20:31:36.361+01:002017-06-30T20:31:36.361+01:00Noob,
sorry that I misundertood your words "w...Noob,<br />sorry that I misundertood your words "while we are the mind"... of your today comment at 08:44.<br />Our self-attention may at present not be intense enough. But indeed we do not have any sensible alternative to scrupulous and persistent self-attention.iduve tinnamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7345918888953765241.post-69948328901181585082017-06-30T17:59:11.066+01:002017-06-30T17:59:11.066+01:00Iduve Tinnam,
I am not thinking "I am the min...Iduve Tinnam,<br />I am not thinking "I am the mind" . I am experiencing myself as one at this moment. It does not matter if I think that I am the Mind or if I am thinking that I am the Self. Thinking "this" and "that" will not lead us anywhere. Self attention is what is needed, alas it is not strong enough to disperse the delusion of the mind.Noobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12797750547512929881noreply@blogger.com